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Bergantino CN212 vs Genz Benz NX2-212T vs BF Super 12T

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[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371069847' post='2109543']
The 3012HO is a 'better' (more powerful) driver [i]on paper[/i] than the Faital 12PR300, which would be more directly comparable to the Deltalite (2.5" voice coil, similar rated excursion, wattage, broadband sensitivity).
But I've not heard the 12PR300, however I have been doing a lot of reading about driver design as well as a lot of listening to speakers, and I think the paper doesn't tell you as much as it seems especially if you go by the usual measures of xmax, wattage, T-S specs and f-response charts. Xmax is an especially over-simplified/over-used measure, that seems to be touted in basscabland as the be-all and end-all when it comes to judging output at high power. For one thing, some drivers behave a lot better beyond 'x-max' than others, and I think that how they start to misbehave differs a lot in audibility/objectionability as well. Smoothness isn't all about the f-response chart either, you can EQ a speaker 'flat' but a good clean PA driver will still sound less coloured than one with poorly suppressed resonances.
Comes down to the usual old cliche that you have to let your ears be the judge :P
[/quote]

I haven't heard the PR300 either but there are enough indicators that it has been built down to a price. Nothing wrong with that if the price savings are being passed on to the customer (and that unit is quite well priced at retail). I didn't mention xmax in particular but yes, I don't find a voice coil overhang of 2mm very impressive at all in a £1,000 bass cabinet. That and the lack of demodulation rings lead me to suppose that they not going to sound great at high volumes.

But as you say, the proof's in the listening.

Edited by stevie

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371129939' post='2110182']
The main issue I've had with the OEM versions we've tried with various European manufacturers is that most of the high-end drivers are very strongly split into PA main and subwoofer use, the former having lower moving mass but being incapable of achieving high excursion (so they're sensitive but can't do big high SPL lows) whilst the latter have very high moving mass (and thus low broadband sensitivity and peaky midrange response) and on the whole they tend to have very low Qts. We've tried all manner of things with different moving parts but kept running into the same problems.
[/quote]

That's interesting, thanks - I'm surprised it's such a deal-breaker, given that the Eminence drivers are not immune from these problems either, but I can understand you have your target parameters/sound. I'm looking forward to trying the 520 series Faitals myself to see how they stack up. I'll be using them for compact subwoofer duty (even though it's an in-betweener, it just happens to fit my particular cab size/weight/power requirements well and the price is right). But I'll definitely be giving it a little go without the filtering, just out of curiosity.

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[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371134112' post='2110267']That's interesting, thanks - I'm surprised it's such a deal-breaker...[/quote]

I started working on new driver designs about 2.5 years ago now. It has been a very deep learning process! Note that I wasn't just referring to what you see available as stock versions but also what can be done in terms of OEM redesigns, keeping the hard parts and changing everything else. Our target parameters/sound are simply to make the best bass instrument speaker it's possible to make! That's a different beast to the best PA top or subwoofer.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371137282' post='2110369']
Our target parameters/sound are simply to make the best bass instrument speaker it's possible to make! That's a different beast to the best PA top or subwoofer.
[/quote]

You do like a bit of the salesspeak nowadays Alex :P 'Best' doesn't mean much unless you set other rather more specific parameters! Everything's a compromise

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[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1371133704' post='2110255']


The cab I've had a sneaky trial of is astonishing, but Alex is keen to tinker further. I don't know if a production date has even been considered yet.

That's all I know, I'm afraid...
[/quote]

Thanks WoT. I'm willing to wait and see then...but if I knew something new was on immediate horizon I might hold off just a touch longer.

I'm doing a few loud gigs where I don't want to lug my Acme and a single loud cab solution is ideal. The Acme
B1 and B2 are brilliant for jazz gigs of various sizes but I've done some funk and function band stuff where i could use the extra welly and can sacrifice the deep low end extension.

I'm left with a nice decision - BF Super 12T vs Berg CN212 vs Vanderkley 212MNT vs Genz. Problem is trying to hear them all. Hence some of my interest in drivers/design etc.

This thread is both confusing and enlightening.

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[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371143689' post='2110498']You do like a bit of the salesspeak nowadays Alex :P 'Best' doesn't mean much unless you set other rather more specific parameters! Everything's a compromise[/quote]

"Best balance of compromises for the job in hand" is what I'm alluding to. More will be revealed in the fullness of time but not everything because considering the work we've done on this front I'd rather the competition had to work things out for themselves! ;)

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371144087' post='2110503']
"Best balance of compromises for the job in hand"
[/quote]

Sigh :rolleyes: And that balance will be different for everyone, even within the relatively small world of bass guitar, thanks to the wide range of amps, basses and ears out there! There's no shame in admitting to a little subjectivity :D the objectivity comes in when you've decided what the criteria for judgement are.

But I look forward to seeing and hopefully hearing what you've come up with, I'm sure it'll be a worthwhile step up. (In the meantime I will carry on quite happily with my non-Eminence drivers for bass guitar, while the Eminence ones sit on the shelf waiting for a new use, and shockingly I shall do so despite the knowledge that they have been judged to be objectively inferior and my taste is evidently defective).

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[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371145252' post='2110525']But I look forward to seeing and hopefully hearing what you've come up with, I'm sure it'll be a worthwhile step up. (In the meantime I will carry on quite happily with my non-Eminence drivers for bass guitar, while the Eminence ones sit on the shelf waiting for a new use, and shockingly I shall do so despite the knowledge that they have been judged to be objectively inferior and my taste is evidently defective).
[/quote]

You're still not understanding what I'm trying to say! I'm not talking about any of those drivers, I've been talking about my search to find a motor that allows me to design a driver based around that magnet and pole pieces that does what I want. This is nothing to do with different brands, companies or factories, it's about specific castings and machined parts which have a certain geometry.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371152817' post='2110668']
You're still not understanding what I'm trying to say! I'm not talking about any of those drivers, I've been talking about my search to find a motor that allows me to design a driver based around that magnet and pole pieces that does what I want. This is nothing to do with different brands, companies or factories, it's about specific castings and machined parts which have a certain geometry.
[/quote]

And you are failing to understand me! Brand is of course irrelevant, I was just being flippant based on the near universal bashing of anything non-Eminence that until recently used to be the norm on bass sites, I'm surprised you don't remember :rolleyes: (especially given how Barefaced has been both beneficiary and victim of flavour-of-the-month-brand-itis). But how a driver's engineered to a /chosen/ set of criteria is what matters, the criteria in terms of design goal NOT method in which they're achieved, being partly subjective eg if I have my QSC amps then I don't give a monkeys if the speaker sensitivity is relatively low, I can still get phenomenally loud and deep out of a small box, IF the driver will take the watts without just using them to fry eggs. There are plenty of subwoofer drivers with better-tamed peaks than the 30xx series, but the mid response doesn't matter that much given that nearly every 12" 2-way is already rather compromised by the HF, may as well add a small mid ...hence your original Big One and Big Baby, surely? Watts are silly cheap and light nowadays. On the other hand if you want a more traditional sound then the true LF capability becomes far less of an issue anyway, may as well optimise for sensitivity, midrange distortion and weight. In reality several of the drivers I own already seem to offer an excellent balance between the two approaches, and these are older generation PA drivers that are surely superseded now

Really I was only gently teasing you whilst you skimmed close to the line of self-promotion, as I'm fairly sure I'd agree with your design criteria and it's great to hear from someone who has access to the driver manufacturers where the real clever stuff happens - but I am often struck by the diversity of requirements people have from their gear and the way they get it to do what they want, which I think is too often overlooked. I am intrigued if you are having much custom tooling though, I'd have thought that was rather cost-prohibitive no?

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371152817' post='2110668']
You're still not understanding what I'm trying to say! I'm not talking about any of those drivers, I've been talking about my search to find a motor that allows me to design a driver based around that magnet and pole pieces that does what I want. This is nothing to do with different brands, companies or factories, it's about specific castings and machined parts which have a certain geometry.
[/quote]
So you've been looking into XBL2?

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Bringing this thread back from the grave!

I play a stingray and at some point in the hopefully not-too-distant future I'll be looking to get a class d amp and (probably) 2x12 cab. I love the top end sparkle of my stingray, but I want something that delivers the low end for an overall balanced sound. Now I know if you have a cab with harsh highs, you can control that with the eq from your head. BUT, I'd rather just have a cab that produces the sound I want in the first place, leaving me to get the desired tone from my amp head, than have to fight one that doesn't.

Right, with all that said I'll mention the contenders. If I can afford them, I can't not look at berg cabs. I love the height of the hd and cn 212's. In an ideal world, I'd want the sound of the hd with the weight of the cn. I think the hd is the sound I want, but it weighs too much, and though the weight is great, I'm led to believe the cn has more pronounced highs - which isn't really what I want. I don't know much about how the Genz Benz nx2 or the Aguilar db212 sound, so it would be great to hear from anyone who owns either of them. And though it's a bit heavier than those I've just mentioned, the Markbass 104hf is a contender too. Apparently (haven't been able to try one) it has a fairly warm sound to it, which is what I'm after.

So there you have it - no idea what amp head I'd be getting yet, it's between the aguilar pf800, the orange terror bass, the little mark tube, the tone hammer 500 and the genz benz shuttle 6.2. I know it's hard to offer advice, but if you were me what would you go for?

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Out of the amps mentioned, I`ve had similar, the PF500, The Terror, and Little Mark Tube 500. All good, for me the winner - and I hate to not give Ampeg the prize - was the Little Mark Tube. I tried a Tone Hammer 500 briefly at the London Bass Guitar Show and my impressions were of a slightly more modern sounding Ampeg. If it weren`t for the fact that I get my sound from a VT DI pedal, keeping my Markbass amps flat/clean, I`d probably get an Aggie set-up as was very impressed with it.

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It is were me, I'd pair a TH500 with the Berg NEO's. That would be a lightweight set-up
with a weighty enough sound. The TH500 is pretty subtle and you tend to think it isn't toppy
enough but paired with AE112's, this works very well. For sure, it hasn't got the weight and authority
in the sound that the DB212 has...but then I run that with a DB750. The use of the TH500 has
breathed new life in my Bergs which I was on the point of selling and I liked the demo of CN cabs
better, IIRC.
I think the neutral-ish sound of the TH compliments NEO ( possibly by design ) and many say the TH
and SL cabs is a quality sound as well.
For me, my Class D/NEO match up really works. I still prefer the DB rig but I now
have no worries about choosing the lighter rig when required at no massive drop-off in sound..far from it.

For a quick reference of the sounds, the light rig does gobby fingerstyle easily and the BD does beans and balls.
Hope that is scientific enough... :lol: :lol: I likey, anyway.

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I have experience of the Genz NX2-212T and the Berg CN212. In terms of bang for buck the Genz NX2-212T, which sold at the blow out price of £375 around a year ago was a total bargain. They are no longer available new, but a used one in good shape is an excellent buy IMO. If you can get one jump on it and you will be happy IMO
The Berg is a little more modern sounding with tighter lows and the ability to sparkle up high if required but is quite an expensive piece of kit. However I agree that the TH500 could be a good match, but it does have a baked in Aguilar tone, so try before you buy if possible.
If a more neutral and modern sounding amp is what you are looking for, the Tecamp Puma is worth a look.

Edited by leroydiamond

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I actually didn't know that the genz benz was no longer available new, but already I've spotted a few used ones around. I think my ideal sound-wise is the hd 212, and while I could use a trolley to move it around, I'd be storing it upstairs which could be a pain. That is a good point leroydiamond, I could combat the modern sounding cn212 wit a warmer head - I know the th500 has a vintage sound to it, and the little mark could warm up if the blend was on the tube preamp. The pf800 has an ultra lo button, which could boost the lows, and the shuttle 6.2 has the tone shaping features.

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[quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1413837414' post='2582672']
I actually didn't know that the genz benz was no longer available new, but already I've spotted a few used ones around. I think my ideal sound-wise is the hd 212, and while I could use a trolley to move it around, I'd be storing it upstairs which could be a pain. That is a good point leroydiamond, I could combat the modern sounding cn212 wit a warmer head - I know the th500 has a vintage sound to it, and the little mark could warm up if the blend was on the tube preamp. The pf800 has an ultra lo button, which could boost the lows, and the shuttle 6.2 has the tone shaping features.
[/quote]

The Berg CN212 is a class cab, but IMO the Genz NX2-212T is the real value for money option. I have used both and would be more than happy with the Genz. A mate of mine pairs his Genz NX2-212T with a Markbass F1 (no longer available new--think there is one in the 'for sale' section here) and is really pleased.
That pairing would make for an excellent set up IMO for not much money, when compared with a new CN212+amp.

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I suppose another option is stacking 1x15's, I suppose that would be easy to move about. The only thing is whether the rig would be tall enough for my liking. For example I could stacked Orange obc115's or Ampeg pf115he's. I know very little about 1x15 cabs though - anybody any experience with either the Orange or Ampeg cabs mentioned above?

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[quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1413829389' post='2582512']
Thanks, appreciate the post :) So how does the LM tube sound without the vt di?
[/quote]

I`ve not got the LMT anymore, just the regular LMIII which I use the VT DI with. The "tube" didn`t really do too much in all honesty, just kind of added a little bit of fur/hair around the edges of the sound. The VT DI I use as for my current band I want that gritty/twangy/driven Ampeg sound and I can`t get a Markbass amp to do that. They`re clean but warm, great for an old-school Precision sound in the mix, though they sound very clean out of it. That`s not knocking Markbass though, far from it, it`s only in this band that I`ve needed anything else for my sound, other than that they`ve been my amp of choice for over 2 years now - and that is a long time for me. Great core sound, can easily put effects with it, difficult to beat imo.

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Well I`d say warm. The LMIII is very clear and transparent sounding to me, but it may well be that as I use Precisions, warmth is what comes through, whereas someone using a different type of bass may get different results.

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Good point, i suppose my stingray would cut through loud and clear then. But then, there are the vle and vpf features. In fact, maybe those make the warmth from a tube preamp redundant, maybe I'd be better off with the regular little mark.

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