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tonyf

Bergantino CN212 vs Genz Benz NX2-212T vs BF Super 12T

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[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1369376518' post='2088427']
When are the HD's back in stock, Barrie?
[/quote]

I'd guess maybe 6 weeks or so :(

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Over the last week we had some time to try all the new Berg cabs against our favourite Aguilar SL's and spent a lot of time running the single 12" versions against each other (we might try the same tests with the CN 212 vs Aguilar DB212 and Bag End 212 but these ar coming with very different design principles behind them so we thought the single 12's were a good place to start).

We tried them as both matched pairs and single cabs

Running as paired 1 x 12" stack:
We tried the CN's and the SL's using the Lakland Limited Edition Joe Osborn with block inlays and binding (very pretty bass!), a GMR custom build with a single Delano pickup and a Fodera Emperor Standard 5 going through a Carvin BX500 and an Aguilar TH 500. We found that with the CN's you got out what you put in, they are very articulate cabs with maybe a slight high mid and high end bias. We also felt that they had a faster reponse compared to the SL'S and harmonics just jumped out. The low end is not as big as the SL'S but is very controlled and punchy.

The CN'S responded very well to eq from the amp or bass which was nice and we didn't feel at any point that they were struggling to handle whatever signal you sent them.

The CN'S are truly a quality cabs and would work with just about any musical style you want, but we would say what you match it with in terms of amp and bass will have a lot to do with the final sound.

The SL'S had a fatter low end and low mid and generally seemed to go deeper than than the CN's. At some points we felt that they may not take as much power as the CN'S but they are rated 100watts less (although this was more of a subjective feel than a real power rating test).

There is definitely more of a 'vintage growl' that's very pleasing to the ear. When you dig in you get a really nice fat tone with just the right amount of bite in the mids. These cabs are great for rock, funk and blues styles.

The SL's were maybe more forgiving in terms of picking up any technique errors whilst the CN's did highlight some finger noise and fret buzzing here and there.

We've been using the SL's as 'reference' cabs for a while and they work well with almost every bass but, after extended listening we can feel that the CN's are going to be great bass demonstrator cabs. We ran another session today and were bouncing from a vintagey Fender '62RI to a modern Ritter Cora and they really made me want to keep playing long after our allotted demo time was up - in fact I wanted to take both basses home with me afterwards!

We then ran the cabs as single 1x12's
The CN's were again very punchy with a tight low end but we found ourselves backing off the tweeter a bit to take that really high end fizz out of the sound. It had a very pleasing growl when digging in hard:)

With some some bass boost from either onboard pre or the amps it would be great as a single 112. Seemed to sound louder then the other cabs (maybe those upper mids).

The SL again had that really nice fat low end and growly mid biased tone. Harmonics didn't quit pop like the CN but they were all there and it wasn't really lacking Anything as a standalone cab. It had a very nice smooth top end without the brightness of the CN.

Just for reference, as we had one sitting there, we also tried the ATS 312. This was the most even across the sonic range and really allowed the core tonal characteristics of each individual bass to shine through. Might sound a bit of a cliche but it was like you could hear the different woods and pickup configurations having more of a defined effect. It didn't have the growl of the CN and SL but it did have a lovely smooth response with the tweeter backed off a shade.

Now looking forward to the 212 test (and getting back on topic!). . .

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Very interesting and GAS-inducing ;-)

What is your impression how well the CN112 (single or pair) would work with the Markbass Big Bang? I think in an earlier post you mentioned the Big Bang to match well with the CN212.

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So what's the special secret cab that Alex and WoT keep referring to? Right now, I am extremely interested in the CN212 and the Super 12T, and if Alex has something new up his sleeve I'd be really interested...

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[quote name='lowerbassment' timestamp='1369662506' post='2091304']
Very interesting and GAS-inducing ;-)

What is your impression how well the CN112 (single or pair) would work with the Markbass Big Bang? I think in an earlier post you mentioned the Big Bang to match well with the CN212.
[/quote]

I have to admit that the Big Bang has really grown on me over the past few days. It seems to have a faster attack than the TH500 and a generally cleaner sound if you leave the controls flat. The clever thing is that you can get close to the Aggie's tone with some judicious use of both the Big Bang's filter controls whereas you can't really dial out the natural colouration that's in the TH500.

The real revelation after a few weeks of testing is the ATS500 head. For a pure clean tone, without sterility, it slays a lot of other heads in the 500w lightweight bracket. Of course it's a lot more expensive but it just oozes quality :)

The nice thing about the CN cabs is that they allow you to hear the differences between the heads quite clearly. However, after extended listening it's obvious that there's a mid hump compared to something that's far more neutral like the ATS 312 or 310.

There seems to be a real trend amongst a lot of cab manufacturers to program in a mid biased sound to their cabs these days. I can understand why they are doing it but there is a tendency for some of them to get very nasal sounding and I think this would get quite wearing after a while.

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[quote name='obbm' timestamp='1368788342' post='2081462']
Logistically it was excellent. It was as easy to lift straight in and out of the car and [u]a lot easier than the AE212 I once owned[/u].
[/quote]

Is there a lot of difference between the CN and AE then?

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[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1371017727' post='2108594']
Is there a lot of difference between the CN and AE then?
[/quote]

The CN is almost as light as a Schroeder 1212L and is a very easy lift for me, although I do usually use a trolley from car to venue. I can actually lift it one handed but I wouldn't want to carry it any distance like that.

The AE was much heavier and was quite a struggle to get into the back of the car on my own.

I used the CN on Saturday with an Orange AD200B head. It sounded good to me, and to the rest of the band too, especially with the tweeter turned off. Problem is the head now weighs far more than the cab. :huh:

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Some interesting info from Talkbass. I've been posting on the Bergantino CN212 thread and one chap says the driver in the cab is a Faital 12PR300 ([url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/new-bergantino-neo-line%3B-pt-2-a-974628/index12.html#post14444555"]http://www.talkbass....ml#post14444555[/url]).

That's most likely the same driver as in the Vanderkley 112EXT (at least according to what LawrenceH has previously thought over in one of the Vanderkley threads).

At a guess, from looking at the power ratings etc, I think the Vanderkley 212MNT may have 2 of the Faital 12PR300's? http://www.vanderkleyamp.nl/products/cabinets/neolite/212mnt/

Edited by funkle

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[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1370984870' post='2108391']
So what's the special secret cab that Alex and WoT keep referring to? Right now, I am extremely interested in the CN212 and the Super 12T, and if Alex has something new up his sleeve I'd be really interested...
[/quote]

I'd like to hear about it too!

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That's interesting Pete - for some reason I can't remember, there was something that suggested Deltalite to me but the revelation that it's not would count as a plus in my book - I've been playing with a Faital 8" unit and it is a nice driver. Also just starting to build a compact PA subwoofer around their 15FH520, a lightweight 15" monster, hoping/expecting it to do good things! I'll post up some details on the DIY section at some point just in case anyone's interested in either project. Been talking to a structural engineer who specialises in wood which has been rather enlightening in terms of understanding lightweight cabinet construction.

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Faital do make some wonderful drivers (such as the 15FH520), but there is nothing special about the PR300 apart from its upper midrange smoothness. I think it's the Genz Benz that uses the Deltalites. In terms of drivers, that would make Bareface the winner for me with the 3012HO, although not everything is down to the driver.

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[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1371048460' post='2109095']
That's most likely the same driver as in the Vanderkley 112EXT (at least according to what LawrenceH has previously thought over in one of the Vanderkley threads).

At a guess, from looking at the power ratings etc, I think the Vanderkley 212MNT may have 2 of the Faital 12PR300's? [url="http://www.vanderkleyamp.nl/products/cabinets/neolite/212mnt/"]http://www.vanderkle...neolite/212mnt/[/url]
[/quote]
.

But that would most probably mean that the 112MNT has a different driver than the 212MNT, which sounds a bit peculiar in my ears.
I'm guessing there's an answer in physics, but I can't remember my physics classes at all. Someone in the know hopefully chimes in.


best,
bert

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[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1371059253' post='2109332']

.

But that would most probably mean that the 112MNT has a different driver than the 212MNT, which sounds a bit peculiar in my ears.
I'm guessing there's an answer in physics, but I can't remember my physics classes at all. Someone in the know hopefully chimes in.


best,
bert
[/quote]

That's true. I wasn't sure about coming to that conclusion either, but the 112MNT is 600w on its own...I assume two of those in a cab would push the power rating to ?1200w?

Hence my thoughts around different drivers in 212MNT vs the 112MNT. Purely speculation though...happy to defer to the experts here!

Edited by funkle

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1371058939' post='2109320']
The latest Genz cabs are Faital loaded.
[/quote]
I stand corrected. Would that also be the PR300 then?

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[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1371059253' post='2109332']
.But that would most probably mean that the 112MNT has a different driver than the 212MNT, which sounds a bit peculiar in my ears.
I'm guessing there's an answer in physics, but I can't remember my physics classes at all. Someone in the know hopefully chimes in.
[/quote]

From the specs on their website, Vanderkley seem to be using a 300w and a 600w 12-inch. The 112MNT is rated at 600w - so must have the 600w driver in.

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[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1371060429' post='2109357']
I stand corrected. Would that also be the PR300 then?
[/quote]

Hi, not sure sorry. This thread may help:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-nx2-212t-929725/index3.html

Pics on Page 3. Strangely, higher wattage rating cf to the Berg 300W speakers, but then again the Bergs are not standard spec.

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[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1371058863' post='2109316']
Faital do make some wonderful drivers (such as the 15FH520), but there is nothing special about the PR300 apart from its upper midrange smoothness. I think it's the Genz Benz that uses the Deltalites. In terms of drivers, that would make Bareface the winner for me with the 3012HO, although not everything is down to the driver.
[/quote]

Is the 3012HO driver that much more impressive than the Faital 12PR300?

I'm not much of an expert so would appreciate hearing about how to read the driver charts better.

Though if course cab volume, crossover design, the tweeter used, etc, all make a difference to various cabs too...

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The 3012HO is a 'better' (more powerful) driver [i]on paper[/i] than the Faital 12PR300, which would be more directly comparable to the Deltalite (2.5" voice coil, similar rated excursion, wattage, broadband sensitivity).
But I've not heard the 12PR300, however I have been doing a lot of reading about driver design as well as a lot of listening to speakers, and I think the paper doesn't tell you as much as it seems especially if you go by the usual measures of xmax, wattage, T-S specs and f-response charts. Xmax is an especially over-simplified/over-used measure, that seems to be touted in basscabland as the be-all and end-all when it comes to judging output at high power. For one thing, some drivers behave a lot better beyond 'x-max' than others, and I think that how they start to misbehave differs a lot in audibility/objectionability as well. Smoothness isn't all about the f-response chart either, you can EQ a speaker 'flat' but a good clean PA driver will still sound less coloured than one with poorly suppressed resonances.
Comes down to the usual old cliche that you have to let your ears be the judge :P

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[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371069847' post='2109543']
The 3012HO is a 'better' (more powerful) driver [i]on paper[/i] than the Faital 12PR300, which would be more directly comparable to the Deltalite (2.5" voice coil, similar rated excursion, wattage, broadband sensitivity).
But I've not heard the 12PR300, however I have been doing a lot of reading about driver design as well as a lot of listening to speakers, and I think the paper doesn't tell you as much as it seems especially if you go by the usual measures of xmax, wattage, T-S specs and f-response charts. Xmax is an especially over-simplified/over-used measure, that seems to be touted in basscabland as the be-all and end-all when it comes to judging output at high power. For one thing, some drivers behave a lot better beyond 'x-max' than others, and I think that how they start to misbehave differs a lot in audibility/objectionability as well. Smoothness isn't all about the f-response chart either, you can EQ a speaker 'flat' but a good clean PA driver will still sound less coloured than one with poorly suppressed resonances.
Comes down to the usual old cliche that you have to let your ears be the judge :P
[/quote]

Thanks Lawrence. Now I just need to get a BF Super 12T and a Bergantino CN212 in the same room. Easy peasy!

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[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1371069847' post='2109543']
The 3012HO is a 'better' (more powerful) driver [i]on paper[/i] than the Faital 12PR300, which would be more directly comparable to the Deltalite (2.5" voice coil, similar rated excursion, wattage, broadband sensitivity).
But I've not heard the 12PR300, however I have been doing a lot of reading about driver design as well as a lot of listening to speakers, and I think the paper doesn't tell you as much as it seems especially if you go by the usual measures of xmax, wattage, T-S specs and f-response charts. Xmax is an especially over-simplified/over-used measure, that seems to be touted in basscabland as the be-all and end-all when it comes to judging output at high power. For one thing, some drivers behave a lot better beyond 'x-max' than others, and I think that how they start to misbehave differs a lot in audibility/objectionability as well. Smoothness isn't all about the f-response chart either, you can EQ a speaker 'flat' but a good clean PA driver will still sound less coloured than one with poorly suppressed resonances.
Comes down to the usual old cliche that you have to let your ears be the judge :P
[/quote]

The key thing to consider with any loudspeaker is that its performance at a given SPL depends upon its frequency response, time response and spatial response, and whichever it's worst at will dominate your perception - it's only as good as its weakest link. And then the performance with increasing SPL depends upon its linearity, for which BL and Le variations dominate.

We've spent some time working with Faital on drivers and a particular point to be noticed is their specifying of Xmax:

They use ((coil length - gap length)/2 + (gap length /3),

whilst Eminence use 10% THD which is very close to (coil length - gap length)/2 + (gap length /4), for typical motor geometry.

The Faitals tend to use longer gaps with lower flux density as well, so both these issues skew their Xmax spec quite a lot higher than if they were specified like for like.

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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1371118236' post='2109963']
The key thing to consider..
[/quote]

Aware of this, but it raises several points - first, subjectively the Faital unit I have behaves very well indeed (possibly in part due to demodulation ring?), in that you can push it very hard and it still sounds acceptable, unlike the Eminence units I have which show a far more drastic and audibly unpleasant transition as you push them 'too hard'. This is also true of older Celestion (ceramic) drivers I have, in that the transition behaviour is very different to the Eminence units.
Second related point, THD is very much a proxy specification in this context, and not IMO any more useful than any other spec in isolation - 10% is a completely arbitrary figure, tells you nothing about the frequency distribution, and is limited to the frequency domain.

I know the way the ERB cab concept evolved led people toward the Eminence drivers, partly because of specified xmax and partly because of cost (especially in the US) but I'd be interested to know what deficiencies you feel eg the Faital drivers, (or Beyma, 18Sound, B&C) have in comparison. Before I got more into the bass cab land I did a lot of PA work and I don't recall any high-end stuff using Eminence - presumably there're far more in the US. I don't doubt they can make good drivers, but at the same time I haven't heard any Eminence-loaded cabs since that have made me think their quality is particularly outstanding when compared to any other decent modern woofer.

FWIW for me, the Kappalite range seem to have stood up well and if I was in the market for a very loud, light commercial cab I'd look to Barefaced over most of the other offerings, But, I feel the deltalite 10s and 12s underperform compared to what their spec would suggest when looking at similar offerings from other manufacturers. For example the Celestion 10" neos I have absolutely slay the Deltalite 10s when it comes to high power, and they are quite an old design now.

Edited by LawrenceH

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I didn't like the 2510 as a replacement driver...that may have been the box tune, it may not.

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[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1371062833' post='2109422']
Hi, not sure sorry. This thread may help:

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-nx2-212t-929725/index3.html"]http://www.talkbass....725/index3.html[/url]

Pics on Page 3. Strangely, higher wattage rating cf to the Berg 300W speakers, but then again the Bergs are not standard spec.
[/quote]

They've got their own sticker over the magnet and it claims a slightly higher power rating. It could be the PR300 but more likely they just don't want us to know that they're charging £750 to stick a couple of drivers in a wooden box. I can't say I blame them.

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The main issue I've had with the OEM versions we've tried with various European manufacturers is that most of the high-end drivers are very strongly split into PA main and subwoofer use, the former having lower moving mass but being incapable of achieving high excursion (so they're sensitive but can't do big high SPL lows) whilst the latter have very high moving mass (and thus low broadband sensitivity and peaky midrange response) and on the whole they tend to have very low Qts. We've tried all manner of things with different moving parts but kept running into the same problems.

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