Fretless for rock?

[Conan]

A couple of other rock examples...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBQKJjXO1A8[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIPrJmzG7Ss[/media]

Edited November 22, 2012 by Conan

[Conan]

OK, three to be precise...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX6J5-13c-0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX6J5-13c-0[/url]

[Conan]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1353519550' post='1875569']
Check out Intronaut's bassist Joe Lester.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMcj7x-J96o[/media]
[/quote]

To be fair, I'm not sure that's a terribly good example. I find it quite hard to pick out what he's playing - especially when he is playing in lower registers. Would that sound cut through a dense mix? I have my doubts.

Nice playing though!

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1353600204' post='1876459']
To be fair, I'm not sure that's a terribly good example. I find it quite hard to pick out what he's playing - especially when he is playing in lower registers. Would that sound cut through a dense mix? I have my doubts.

Nice playing though!
[/quote]

The bass is quite prominent in the mix on the quieter stuff but isn't too clear in the heavier sections because of the dense guitars. Give their stuff a listen! This one is off 'Valley of Smoke', good album.

[Kongo]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1353600204' post='1876459']
To be fair, I'm not sure that's a terribly good example. I find it quite hard to pick out what he's playing - especially when he is playing in lower registers. Would that sound cut through a dense mix? I have my doubts.

Nice playing though!
[/quote]

I play fretless basses in bands where the tone is heavier than that and still cut through. The issue my ears pick up on here is when there's a heavy part he seems to put on some sort of fuzzy distortion, which isn't a remedy at all.
He could tweak his EQ to fit the spectrum of frequencies they don't have. He cuts through like mad on the clean parts but when the guitars are distorted they seem to have opted for a thin sounding tone, relying on the lower tuning to thicken it. He could cut through a LOT more than he does.
BUT, maybe the point is he doesn't need to. Seems his time to put the sonic signature is the clean tone.

...As I type again here comes the chorus, he's using so many shoebox mids on that distortion. That's why you feel he doesn't cut through.

Also might be worth adding here, a fretless bass can just be played as is. You don't HAVE to slide and have a huge amount of "mwah" at all times y'know. :-P

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='Kongo' timestamp='1353602649' post='1876499']
Also might be worth adding here, a fretless bass can just be played as is. You don't HAVE to slide and have a huge amount of "mwah" at all times y'know. :-P
[/quote]

Then why have a fretless in the first place

[mentalextra]

I also think OP needs to define his use of "rock"

[mentalextra]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1353595749' post='1876402']
Well, I've never been lost in the mix, does that make me a star player?! Yes!

I'd love to hear some AD/DC on a fretless!
Dan
[/quote]

As much as I hate to say it, bass players in Rock bands are 2nd class citizens compared to lead and rhythm guitars. My definition of "rock" would be Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple. In this respect I dont think it makes a lot of difference whether you are playing fretted or fretless. I still think the subtlty of the fretless would be lost. Instances where this is not true would be in a band where one member is showcasing their talents. For example, if I bought a Phil Collins album I would expect the drums to be at the forefront, not only in ability but their presence in the mix. You would not expect to buy a Mark King album and have his abilities hidden behind a blare of guitars! There, I've said it so shoot me!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvqGxfgQH9I"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvqGxfgQH9I[/url]

Edited November 22, 2012 by mentalextra

[Kongo]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1353606135' post='1876559']
Then why have a fretless in the first place
[/quote]

Because of the freedom.You can't get micro tones on a fretted and you can't transition and blend notes on one either. Neither can you slide harmonics.
Let me ask this; why has fretless become "mwah only" when it comes to playing? The western world has become reliant on frets.
Banjo players also have a big dabble into the fretless world, none of them speak of mwah. This kind of thinking isn't broad enough.
When I play a fretless I don't always obsess over the mwah, same as I don't obsess on vibrato which is all someone will do when you hand them one.

I guess another reason is option. Maybe a quieter, more ambient moment comes into the song. If you take the outlook that you must have a tonne of "mwah" and be sliding all the time in songs and yet you don't, then you'll be playing fretted and oops, now you wish to put some in you're now screwed.

I guess I could flip your question around and say "Why play fretted if you don't slap"? :-P

Edited November 23, 2012 by Kongo

[Conan]

[quote name='Kongo' timestamp='1353602649' post='1876499']
Also might be worth adding here, a fretless bass can just be played as is. You don't HAVE to slide and have a huge amount of "mwah" at all times y'know. :-P[/quote]

That's a good point. I'm guilty of that myself. I don't play fretless all that often and when I do I am very aware that I play differently - with far more slides, vibrato and so on. It's almost as if occasional fretless players have to make everyone notice that they are playing fretless... Why do we do that I wonder?

I remember listening to Jeff Berlin playing on Bill Bruford's "Feels good to me" album for the first time. Not only was I fairly sure that it was Jaco on bass, I was absolutely convinced that it must be played on a fretless (it wasn't!). Sometimes, Jaco on fretless sounds like he is playing a fretted bass! It is not clear-cut at all!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1USv4S0Uvuo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1USv4S0Uvuo[/url]

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1353606255' post='1876560']
I also think OP needs to define his use of "rock"
[/quote]

Certainly not metal.....AC/DC, Lizzy, Bad Company....the usual 'Classic Rock' fayre

[stoker]

The Fear Factory song 'Edgecrusher' was done on a double bass, just to take things further.

[D.I. Joe]

There is a friend of mine playing bass in a local garagey rock band and IMO his fretless sounds better in the mix than his fretted basses. Not saying this is necessarily the case for everyone though. I don't think instruments of any kind should be confined to specific genres as a rule - they are all musical instruments, so you can use any them to make music. Simples

[Urban Bassman]

[quote name='pietruszka' timestamp='1353582616' post='1876234']
I could be mistaken, but isn't 'Oliver's Army' played on a fretless? It certainly sounds like it on the bridge.

As for being 'lost in the mix', I've never had that problem. Is there any particular reason that not having frets would mean you'd be 'lost in the mix'?



Dan
[/quote]

Funnily enough I'm working on this very song....

Personnally I don't think it is a fretless - IMHO it sounds like a fretted Precision played with a fair amount of attitude! Which is how I intend to play it but with a Jazz

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='Kongo' timestamp='1353638776' post='1876927']
I guess I could flip your question around and say "Why play fretted if you don't slap"? :-P
[/quote]

I was being facetious which I don't think really came across. For the record, I have one bass which I actually play which is fretless. And while you can play normally and not put in a lot of 'mwah' and vibrato, the harder thing for me was not doing it all the time.

[Guest MoJo]

I'm trying to play it 'normally' and avoid the 'mwah'. I've not tried it in a live situation yet but sounds great jamming along to some songs from the set on my Tascam bass trainer.

[chris_b]

[quote]....Fretless for rock?....[/quote]

It's Rock.... you can do anything you want to do!

[Leen2112]

I have a few recordings of Sean Malone who always plays fretless, mainly in extreme weird tech metal jazz stuff. He's also on a Rush tribute CD called working man where he does all geddys stuff on fretless, It's pretty good, good too is his band Gordian knot.

[BassTractor]

[Chantshouts "[i][b]Veil of Maya[/b][/i]"]

Edited November 23, 2012 by BassTractor

[merlin]

going to use my 5 string fretless next gig as main bass,bet they( drummer guitard) wont even notice,I find at the lowish volume we play at the fretless is great,.

[Kongo]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1353665602' post='1877073']
That's a good point. I'm guilty of that myself. I don't play fretless all that often and when I do I am very aware that I play differently - with far more slides, vibrato and so on. It's almost as if occasional fretless players have to make everyone notice that they are playing fretless... Why do we do that I wonder?
[/quote]

Monkey see, monkey do. It's all people seem to do, so you do it. Like in a shop, someone picks up a bass and BAM, even if they can't play, here comes the slap. :-P
See, for me it didn't work this way. A fretless player once said years ago that vibrato is often overused as a way to cover up bad intonation.
They said best way to get into fretless is to turn off your mind it's this scary, different mythical instrument and to just play it as you would, but remember you can do things that you could not.
So, first time I got my 6-string fretless, I did a few slides but still to this day don't do vibrato often. In fact I still prefer to bend. But I will transition between notes.

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1353673738' post='1877220']
I was being facetious which I don't think really came across. For the record, I have one bass which I actually play which is fretless. And while you can play normally and not put in a lot of 'mwah' and vibrato, the harder thing for me was not doing it all the time.
[/quote]

No man, I got you. I just wanted to cover all avenues and respond fully. :-P

[quote name='Leen2112' timestamp='1353678411' post='1877315']
I have a few recordings of Sean Malone who always plays fretless, mainly in extreme weird tech metal jazz stuff. He's also on a Rush tribute CD called working man where he does all geddys stuff on fretless, It's pretty good, good too is his band Gordian knot.
[/quote]

He was the bassist in Cynic, who are a huge influence of mine. I love the older progressive death metal like Cynic and Atheist.
He has such a fast and rapid percussive fingerstyle usually used in funk and people who mimic Jaco. Such precision too. :-)

In case I haven't already, a fretless wizard who defied the odds goes by the name of Steve DiGiorgio. He even plays thrash on a fretless and has such a powerful and cutting tone. not at all traditional but then just like in the fretted world, there are no rules to say fretless HAS to sound one way.

Two songs by him I like I shall post here for an example.

1st is from Vintersorg. It's quite melodic and acoustic, so it's safe to click on. This uses a traditional sound.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7D6_T-Zwhc&list=FLe95cea1mO9TxlriPEMR4fA&index=4&feature=plpp_video[/media]

2nd is from Sadus, this is where he uses a much more cutting tone and BOY does it cut and yes, that is a fretless. It's a Thor Mjolnir bass.
This isn't so ear friendly to many so click with caution. :-P

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmZ9Ia5nEbo&list=FLe95cea1mO9TxlriPEMR4fA&index=2&feature=plpp_video[/media]

Such fluid picking also.
I've noticed from watching live and listening to him play that a fretless with a cutting tone like his seems to have more "thunk" to the note. It cuts but it doesn't buzz too much...hard to explain. You'll hear in on the Sadus tune when he really digs in.
I'm still yet to get this tone though...working on it.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Kongo

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Kongo' timestamp='1353370080' post='1874448']
Steve DiGiorgio would like a word with you on fretless not cutting through.
He's made an entire career playing in extreme metal bands with a fretless bass. Used to use Carvin and a custom ESP F-series fretless 5's but these days uses Mjolnir 5 and 6-string Thor Basses.
The album "Individual Thought Patterns" by Death demonstrates great fretless play and that was a crappy copy he slapped a Fender neck on.
[/quote]

I had no idea he played fretless! He really does have a great cutting sound

Edited November 23, 2012 by chrismuzz

[Kongo]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1353714160' post='1877866']
I had no idea he played fretless! He really does have a great cutting sound
[/quote]

WHAT!? :-P Just kidding. Not many do until they see him live or learn his tunes etc and search. Unlike players like Alex Webster, he's kind of reclusive on the internet. He's mainly a session player though and extremely busy. Spoke on a forum once and he was the guy who said it's very possible to make a living as a session bassist in metal, and off I went. he's right though, there's more than just funk and jazz for us bassists.
Ever listened to Death - Individual Thought Patterns? The re-master upped the bass volume, you can hear his fretless work on this song perfect, it's my favourite. Listen to that chorus...such a genius line! And it hurts to learn.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwT2oV9qOEA[/media]

He started in 1993 with a cheap fender copy he had from early days and slapped a Fender fretless neck on it, routed the jazz pickup etc and put it in.
I didn't realise that before Thor bass he used to play a custom fretless ESP F-series. I love the F-series and it made me that much happier knowing an influence of mine played them once. :-P

Here's one of few vids of him with his new basses:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8uHP303Fto[/media]

Real hard to find much about em tbh.
Also plays in a Jazz Fusion band called "Dark Hall", for those not so inclined to the "darker" side of the music world. :-P

Edited November 24, 2012 by Kongo

[Bassman Sam]

I'm a bit late to the party but for what it's worth, I played a Ricky 4001 fretless in a rock band in the early '70's for a few years without any problems. I think it depends on how your play it as to whether it fits or not. You play what fits the song.

I used to get comments. Some punters didn't know it was a fretless I was playing and most didn't know I was in the band.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Kongo' timestamp='1353714954' post='1877877']
WHAT!? :-P
[/quote]

I must do more homework,cheers!