ezbass Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Sorry I've just made myself smile over the use of the word wood I must grow up! Anyway the big G has been fined by the US Govt for importing illegally sourced ebony http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19153588 Looks more like a slap on the wrist really. However, what I want to know is what happens to the seized ebony? It isn't any good for anything else other than fretboards as it has already been cut. Surely they won't burn it will they? That seems wrong. Edited August 7, 2012 by ezbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Could use it to make prosthetic tusks for elephants that have had their ivory nicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 /me keeps an eye out for the Feds looking for the ebony fingerboard on my Gibson IV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesh Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 With the Ivory you could make the most illegal piano in the world. We may be raping African wildlife, but at least we're helping fight racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bremen Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='Kesh' timestamp='1344331204' post='1762778'] With the Ivory you could make the most illegal piano in the world. We may be raping African wildlife, but at least we're helping fight racism. [/quote] I like the idea of an illegal piano. Something very Spike Milligan about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 There's a joke in here somewhere about illegal wood and Gary Glitter, but I'm not going to make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 They surely would burn it. Just think of all the fine ganga that has ended up on the bonfire. The feds have no soul. Anyroad, this is a very very old story isn't it? Amd I thought it was over their Brazilian Rosewood. Any guitar builder must be very careful when importing guitars into the U.S. Making sure the timber used is all legal. They have the power to extradite and lock you up in one of their prisons for the trade of illegal cites registered stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1344332702' post='1762808'] There's a joke in here somewhere about illegal wood and Gary Glitter, but I'm not going to make it. [/quote]You're just kidding yourself, give it time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I'm certain they would burn it. I was talking to a timber merchant who told me about a very large batch (couple of containers) of rosewood which very nearly got destroyed because the documents were in duplicate rather than triplicate. Thankfully someone with a bit of common sense stepped in at the last minute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartelby Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 According to the info Gibson posted on Facebook all siezed materials, in the 2nd armed raid, were returned to Gibson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Isn't that like giving poachers a slap on the wrist, then giving them the elephant tusks back and telling them to go about their business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartelby Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1344337092' post='1762902'] Isn't that like giving poachers a slap on the wrist, then giving them the elephant tusks back and telling them to go about their business? [/quote] As they're still allowed to source the wood from the same suppliers I guess, some of, the wood wasn't illegal. Edited August 7, 2012 by bartelby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietruszka Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1344334590' post='1762838'] They surely would burn it. Just think of all the fine ganga that has ended up on the bonfire. The feds have no soul. Anyroad, this is a very very old story isn't it? Amd I thought it was over their Brazilian Rosewood. Any guitar builder must be very careful when importing guitars into the U.S. Making sure the timber used is all legal. They have the power to extradite and lock you up in one of their prisons for the trade of illegal cites registered stuff. [/quote] I think it was over the Madagascan ebony, there was a documentary about Madagascan lemurs which involved a side story about the illegal logging of macasar ebony. It's the habitat of lemurs and the wood was unknowingly sold to Gibson. There are basses that sound so good they should be illegal, but then theres doing that literally! Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1344337092' post='1762902']Isn't that like giving poachers a slap on the wrist, then giving them the elephant tusks back and telling them to go about their business?[/quote] No. All trade in ivory, since the ban introduced in the 80s, has been illegal. Ivory per se is not illegal, so long as it was obtained and fashioned before a set date (although the exact date escapes me at this time). The woods which Gibson obtained from India were not "illegal", either under Indian or US statute. However, what Gibson failed to do was properly describe these woods at point of importation, and to keep proper records of supply chain information. Destroying those woods which have been legally harvested and exported would be perverse because the importer has not kept proper records. The woods which Gibson obtained from Madagascar were more problematic, as the exportation from the Republic of this ebony was contrary to statutes in Madagascar. However, that's not the same as saying the woods are per se "illegal", even if removal from Madagascar was a statutory offence. Even that wouldn't have gotten Gibson into significant trouble, except that Gibson imported the woods from Madagascar in full knowledge that international trade in those woods, in a raw (unfinished) state was illegal. Again though, it would be perverse to have woods which can be legally harvested destroyed, so any judicial sanction is gauged to have an element of punishment and an element of recompense. As for the level of fine, unfortunately such fines are often of a low order, as the acts of companies such as Gibson are placed in the "offence" category (like parking) as opposed to "crime" (say assault). That fines are of such a low order is one of the reasons why it is difficult stopping the trade, as some organisations would see such fines as commercially justifiable to obtained "sanitised" woods. Edited August 7, 2012 by noelk27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesh Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 I wonder if you can make a bass out of a ring tailed lemur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietruszka Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='Kesh' timestamp='1344338860' post='1762952'] I wonder if you can make a bass out of a ring tailed lemur. [/quote] Hahaha!!! Its a good job most gigs are at night then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1344340205' post='1762988']Basically he reckoned the set up is so messed up even those policing it don't have a clue what is going on. All you can do is keep the paper work and hope for the best.[/quote] Certainly, there was a great deal of confusion among luthiers/manufacturers when the news that Gibson had been raided broke, but I'd disagree with the view you've summarised. It would be unfair to say that the authorities and environmental pressure groups are not aware of the statutory position, and the intent that the regulatory regimes are attempting to act on. Yes, weighing the statutes passed by individual countries in the context of intra- and extra- territorial obligations can be problematic, but it is the mindset of commercial consumers that has to be altered. Many simply see the exercise as one of box ticking, as they take no long-term view on how their consumption is impacting on the environment. Certainly, Gibson exhibited an attitude that is not uncommon - aware of the statutory obligations at home and abroad, but exercising a corporate mind that wilfully ignored its position. Clearly, Gibson take the view that using virgin stock is how it as a corporate entity maximises its reward position in monetary terms, although that approach may prove shortsighted in terms of reputation management in the long term. We just have to hope that the musical instrument buying public takes such acts as those perpetrated by Gibson into account when making purchases (even if in vain). There are luthiers/manufacturers who have alternative approaches, such as Yamaha, which has been involved in forestry, and husbandry of timbers, for decades. Praise should also be given to those luthiers/manufacturers who take the reclamation approach, although this also has its paperwork headaches (the change of use having to be document, and the date of creation of the instrument given as the date for the timbers, which not all agencies appear to appreciate). Unfortunately it takes time to alter mindsets, and Gibson currently represents the bad attitudes which prevail among manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Anything that involves US export controls is a nightmare, as an aside, Gibson should be glad they don't have to deal with anything that's dual use or ITAR controlled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='Kesh' timestamp='1344338860' post='1762952'] I wonder if you can make a bass out of a ring tailed lemur. [/quote] Yes, but they're only made for 24-tone music, due to the spacing of the fret lining. Me, I'm into punk, and hence use a beagle short scale. best, bert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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