slobluesine Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1342884011' post='1742369'] Running a small venue is not easy or very financially rewarding, many go down, and most of the small London venues I play with Kit or London Zulu are clearly doing it because they believe in putting on live music as a good healthy thing, and the owners are quite passionate about it. I would rather have good places for fledgling originals bands to play but not get paid, or paid little, for playing, than make these venues unviable because of some sort of mandatory musicians union fee for bands playing. Next thing you know bands are out and cheap DJs are in. It's not just one band playing mate, it's often four or five in one evening. Are you suggesting a small venue gives £1000 of its profit away to the five fledgling originals bands in an evening? It won't work, it never has. Once the band develops a following, then they can hire bigger venues and services and put on bigger shows, but no doubt you'll be pissed off about that too as you probably consider that to be 'pay to play', which of course it is. [/quote] do Kit or London Zulu charge admission? the reason bar staff , security, lighting and sound get paid is that they refuse to do it for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deep Thought Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) All of our band are in the ambulance service, we started it for a laugh and a bit of an escape from the day job. For many years we've been of the opinion that a gig was a gig and as we were doing it for fun, we didn't really care about the money. Thus we did several ambulance service retirement do's and charity events for nothing. Pub gigs on the other hand, we always felt we should be paid for-plenty of other bands rely on the income, and we didn't want to start undercutting them, so we've never gone down the route of doing one for free in the hope of getting paid thereafter. So those we get paid for, not a lot but it comes in handy. Lately we've become a lot more rigid with the charity stuff, it's bloody hard getting three of us off work at the same time, childcare issues are involved, and we basically are no longer doing anything for nothing-we at least want expenses paid, unless it's very much to our advantage for whatever reason to do the gig for free. Edited July 21, 2012 by Deep Thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 thread is getting too long folks and so missing the point, sorry, but i dont get the advantage of playing for free, thanks for the replies all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1342886001' post='1742408'] There is no advantage. Just circumstance. Bar staff etc get paid as that’s their job. Bleedin' liberals would kick up a fuss if they didn't get at least minimum wage. Playing in the band unless you are a Pro is not a job. It's a hobby. when was the last time a Train spotter got paid? [/quote] FFS!! dont start me on train spotters, OK< OK play for free... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 We didn't get paid for our first gig last weekend but we had a good night out, saw some cool bands, didn't have to pay to get in and got to play live which is the reason we all got into this in the first place.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jul/19/olympics-london-2012-musicians-pay?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038"]http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jul/19/olympics-london-2012-musicians-pay?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Don't have a problem with artists/bands playing for free - It's their choice! As for the olympics: They are quickly becoming a national embarrassment. I personally, would have nothing to do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin_lindsay Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1342880411' post='1742318'] Hope this doesn't end up like another of the OPs previous threads where he stamps his feet & goes on & on for page after page demanding money until someone gives up & pays to shut him up. [/quote] Hahaha - my thoughts too!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Stu Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='kevin_lindsay' timestamp='1342891084' post='1742511'] Hahaha - my thoughts too!!! [/quote] I shouldn't have said it - he's now resurrecting the "Warranty" thread via multiple PMs to me. Methinks the lady doth protest too much! It's killing him that I won't say whether I actually "am mates" with Sid Vicious, or whatever tag "Sid" was using. I'm not - to the best of my knowledge, but don't tell him, it'll keep him awake. Edited July 21, 2012 by Big_Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Festivals for free are pretty good. This year me and the missus have got full weekend passes to 3 or 4 pretty decent festivals, and all I have to do is play a half hour set in the middle of it. That's saved me about a grand in tickets. Thanks very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_skezz Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 If either of my old bands had demanded payment every time, I'd have played less than ten gigs (that's mostly including nights where we got given free beer, as opposed to actual payment). Too many variables to say all musos should/shouldn't do freebies - my last band played punk music, originals and covers, which although popular with some audiences won't get many people along to the pub compared to a band who covers pop standards - sad but true. Most of the bands rond here play metal, a lot of metal fans look down on punk for being crude and generally easier to play than their preferred genre, so we didn't often go down well on bills that placed us with metal groups - which we went for because of lack of gigging opportunities otherwise. Should we have gotten paid for those gigs when we didn't bring or entertain as many people as the metal bands, even though most of their punters were friends of the band and we were a couple of antisocial *******s who played a genre that's unpopular around here? Answer: We should have, cos IMO we were brilliant But that wouldn't have helped the manager out much, and that's where it counts. Those free gigs may not have been particularly advantageous to us financially, but we had a laugh doing them, got tighter through them, and through them managed to get a few more people along to the gigs that did pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Music to me is a hobby. I have other hobbies and I have to pay to do them and I quite happily pay because they're fun, that's why I do them. My wife loves card making. She pays a fortune in equipment and materials and stuff, then she puts the cards together and gives them away for free, because she enjoys it. There are plenty of people making a fortune out of her doing her hobby, designers, manufacturers and suppliers, it's their job. If my wife worked in a card making factory, as a designer or a printer, she'd expect to be paid because it would be her job. Making money at your hobby is great if you can, don't get me wrong. How would you feel if all bands had to be paid but minimum wage came into it? Would you play, as a professional, for £6 (or whatever minimum wage is) an hour? And don't some bands pay to play? They must feel that they get something out of it, even if it's only fun or experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I have worked professionally has a bass player and as a sound engineer so I look on playing music has a business. Saying that I have no problem with people playing for nothing. Most of the great bands started out working for free and often when moneys involved art forms gets diluted so I believe we would lose far more than we gain. Let me play the devils advocate, if a band can't get enough people in to cover the venues overheads how much is the band worth? Should a venues subsidise a bands? Most bands look on the free gigs has a lost leader to build up a following in order to get paid gigs. I have more of a problem with bands and musicians who don't pay any taxes( illegally) on their musical earrings undercutting and keeping the wagers down for pro and semi pro musicians who do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342884685' post='1742381'] do Kit or London Zulu charge admission? the reason bar staff , security, lighting and sound get paid is that they refuse to do it for free [/quote] No, the venues and promoters do. We get a cut sometimes, but not often.London Zulu are a bigger draw so we make a few bob, but next to nothing after costs. £20 each? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342888637' post='1742458'] [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jul/19/olympics-london-2012-musicians-pay?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038"]http://www.guardian....P=FBCNETTXT9038[/url] [/quote] This is old news mate. SOME of the musicians are not being paid, some are. It is wrong not to give the musicians expenses at least. Are we talking about the same issues here? And before you ask, I know, and play with, musicians involved in the Olympics, some paid well, some not paid at all, for different musical activities. I think your OP was unclear if you are talking about these types of scenario. Anyway, Johnson was absolutely correct, you are now stamping your feet and can't accept other people feel different to you about this philosophical/economic issue, so what's the f***ing point in discussing it? Edited July 21, 2012 by silddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eljay Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Is there the "pay-to-play" scenario in the UK? This is a system in which bands perform at clubs, get a percentage of "the door" during their set, objective being to get the band to call their friends/posse to the club, pay $10 to get in, band gets 3-5 dollars, something like that. Whatever an act wants or needs to do to get their name out there has to be fine with me. It's not an issue if an act has bookings, then no matter if other bands play for free.Some claim that this "ruins" it for working bands as the club owners will then look to book acts willing to perform for nothing. What I've learned is that Club Owners want something that will sell drinks/food, bring people to the venue when the right act performs appropriate music. Meaning not Cowboy tunes in a Jazz Club, not R&B in a Goth bar. Find the appropriate venue for the music you're doing, fill the club, sell lots of whiskey; You'll get paid. Or, be a rockstar and fly! away in a Lear Jet! Me- I'm getting too old for all the girls that would undoubtedly THROW themselves at me Anyway....Play for free if you want to. Might get future paying gigs. Edited July 21, 2012 by Eljay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Eljay' timestamp='1342894763' post='1742562'] Is there the "pay-to-play" scenario in the UK? [/quote]Absolutely! It's common practice for an unknown band to 'buy onto' an established bands tour. Going back a few years, a band I was in had Duran Duran 'buy onto' a tour. It was during that tour that they were seen and eventually signed by EMI You could say that,"that was a wise investment". Edited July 21, 2012 by SteveK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1342894453' post='1742561'] This is old news mate. SOME of the musicians are not being paid, some are. It is wrong not to give the musicians expenses at least. Are we talking about the same issues here? And before you ask, I know, and play with, musicians involved in the Olympics, some paid well, some not paid at all, for different musical activities. I think your OP was unclear if you are talking about these types of scenario. Anyway, Johnson was absolutely correct, you are now stamping your feet and can't accept other people feel different to you about this philosophical/economic issue, so what's the f***ing point in discussing it? [/quote] i thought the Olympics was still a huge problem for musicians, but yep, we digress my original gripe was... 'gigs where people pay to get in, sound, lighting, security, bar staff, EVERYONE gets paid except the band' but most musos here think that's ok, have to say i'm surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Can the OP please make it clear that he's talking about originals bands here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzneck Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 If it's a freebee gig then the best technique is this: [attachment=113769:USA 2007 031.JPG] The white hat marked "TIPS" at the front of the stage is for TIPS for the band! That night the band only played for a free meal and a few beers; their money came from the tips put into the hat. I played three numbers with them and was given U$25 out of the hat for the privilege of playing a club on Beale Street whilst on holiday - not bad eh? It is a technique that one of the bands I play in is considering doing but it'll probably go down like a concrete parachute in the UK. So........... you'se can "play for free" as far as the pub is concerned but you take your own risk on covering expenses whilst you have your fun - it's up to the punters at the end of the day but it certainly makes you tighten up and work hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eljay Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I'm not so sure that most players think it's OK, it's just kind of a necessary evil; that's the way it is type of thing. Projects spend time, blood, sweat, tears, putting their music together in garages, rehearsal halls, etc. Just BURSTING to get their music/message to the people, who can blame? The brass ring of fame- The $$, the girls, the respect, the girls, the power, the travel, the intellect, the girls, the creative spark, the achievment on one's instrument, the girls.. Why one might even get to be on "Oprah" and I truly hope you're spared that televison show! Whatever the choice, the music biz is TOUGH!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342896180' post='1742582']... 'gigs where people pay to get in, sound, lighting, security, bar staff, EVERYONE gets paid except the band' [/quote] Can't say I've encountered that,if there's an entry fee then bands can expect a cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Eljay' timestamp='1342894763' post='1742562'] . Me- I'm getting too old for all the girls that would undoubtedly THROW themselves at me . [/quote] Never too old for that....Too married,maybe,but never too old... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342896716' post='1742591'] Can the OP please make it clear that he's talking about originals bands here? [/quote] Exactly. If I'm just starting gigging my originals band, and we can't bring in a beer chugging following, why would I want to be paid?!? I'm so grateful to the venue or promoter for letting the band play in the first place. When we can bring in twenty people who generate £400 of pre-profit revenue for the venue, then I MIGHT expect £50 or something for the band, possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobluesine Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1342896716' post='1742591'] Can the OP please make it clear that he's talking about originals bands here? [/quote] it started as a general question.... "anyone else here totally pissed off with musicians who play for free?" no foot stamping, toy throwing, just a Q on the subject of 'gettin paid' got my answer folks and seems i'm in the minority, no probs, i'll get over it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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