play for free

[chris_b]

I haven't read the thread, but we've had this question a few times before. My answer is always the same. I don't pay for free. It costs me money to gig and someone else is making money out of me gigging so I get paid or I don't play. This is the same for my covers bands and originals bands.

If playing in a band is your hobby then I can see why my rules don't apply, but as soon as some promoters see bands playing for nothing they'll expect everyone else to do the same, which is bad for the rest of us.

Offering to play a freebie to get into a gig is also a bad idea.

If you have a sense of your worth as a musician and you think the band is good then you should expect to be financially rewarded for your talent.

[musophilr]

[quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342873279' post='1742144']
anyone else here totally pissed off with musicians who play for free?
[/quote]

Only if by doing so they encourage other people to expect musicians to work for nothing, or are undercutting musicians who ought to be getting paid properly.

[BILL POSTERS]

Anther side of this is the so called charity gig, where no one seems to know which charity they expect you to play for.
Especially in pubs where the landlord is still making money.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1342955597' post='1743066']
If playing in a band is your hobby then I can see why my rules don't apply, but as soon as some promoters see bands playing for nothing they'll expect everyone else to do the same, which is bad for the rest of us.
[/quote]

Would you apply the same logic to freeware/open source software? By your reasoning above, that must be bad for the rest of the software industry.

Would you apply the same logic to the voluntary sector? That must surely be bad for paid workers in the same sectors.

Such things certainly benefit the customers for freeware or volunteer services, so another way of looking at things is that bands that play for free are doing the public a service by keeping the cost of live music lower than it might otherwise be. In these days of £150 ticket prices for big-name gigs, this might not be such a bad thing.

[slobluesine]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1342955597' post='1743066']
I haven't read the thread, but we've had this question a few times before. My answer is always the same. I don't pay for free. It costs me money to gig and someone else is making money out of me gigging so I get paid or I don't play. This is the same for my covers bands and originals bands.

If playing in a band is your hobby then I can see why my rules don't apply, but as soon as some promoters see bands playing for nothing they'll expect everyone else to do the same, which is bad for the rest of us.

Offering to play a freebie to get into a gig is also a bad idea.

If you have a sense of your worth as a musician and you think the band is good then you should expect to be financially rewarded for your talent.
[/quote]

nail on its head,
afaik hobbies are for the bedroom and the garage and who would expect to get paid for their hobby? soon as you start competing with other bands for paying gigs it aint a hobby any more.

I gig cos i love it, but it also has to pay some bills, i don’t have a high paying day job to subsidise a hobby these days.

[Sibob]

Whenever I play music, I'm playing for free.....
What I get paid for is travelling, lifting, waiting, and generally putting up with crap from 'customers'.

It's important to decide what you're getting paid to do, and what you do for your soul

Si

[chris_b]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1343081976' post='1745118']
....bands that play for free are doing the public a service by keeping the cost of live music lower than it might otherwise be....
[/quote]

It's taken me 24 hours to try to come up with a sensible reply but I can't. This comment is a load of cock.

[paul torch]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1343123368' post='1745473']
Whenever I play music, I'm playing for free.....
What I get paid for is travelling, lifting, waiting, and generally putting up with crap from 'customers'.

It's important to decide what you're getting paid to do, and what you do for your soul

Si
[/quote]

this.

when I was young I had two passions, design and music.

I decided to make design my way of generating income. This meant that I have had to compromise my creativity regularly throughout my career.

I decided that my music would not be compromised by adding money into the equation. This is not sot say that I have never been payed for my musical contributions but it has always been on my own terms.

How do people feel about other creative areas where this could, perhaps, be seen as an issue? Banksy vs Hirst for example.

[BigRedX]

I take offence at the notion that as soon as you earn money from an artistic pursuit, the artistry or the integrity of the artist has in some way been compromised.

At any given time what you do creatively will either correspond with what other people want or it won't. The trick is to make the most of your creativity when it becomes financially viable.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1343123194' post='1745470']
nail on its head,
afaik hobbies are for the bedroom and the garage and who would expect to get paid for their hobby? soon as you start competing with other bands for paying gigs it aint a hobby any more.

I gig cos i love it, but it also has to pay some bills, i don’t have a high paying day job to subsidise a hobby these days.
[/quote]

That's all fair enough in your particular case but it clearly doesn't apply to everyone else does it?

Are you advocating banning anyone from playing for free just because you can't afford to do so?

[paul torch]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1343124878' post='1745512']
I take offence at the notion that as soon as you earn money from an artistic pursuit, the artistry or the integrity of the artist has in some way been compromised.

At any given time what you do creatively will either correspond with what other people want or it won't. The trick is to make the most of your creativity when it becomes financially viable.
[/quote]
no offence meant.

I wasn't stating that as soon as money enters into the equation your integrity is compromised. as I said in my post, I have been paid money for music but as it has never been my main source of income I have never had to let the purse-holder dictate to me what should be played which does happen to me in my regular "creative" job.

I was just talking from personal experience and the system I employ. I know some people are lucky enough to be able to have both creative freedom and be paid a living wage to do so. It's just not been that way for me.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1343124209' post='1745492']
It's taken me 24 hours to try to come up with a sensible reply but I can't. This comment is a load of cock.
[/quote]

Hmm. Sounds like you don't like the suggestion (which is fair enough) but can't actually refute it.

Look, I can perfectly understand that musicians trying to earn money by gigging are likely to be upset by other bands playing for free, but that's life. Freedom of choice is what we all want isn't it? What would you prefer - some sort of 'closed shop' arrangement where only paid members of some sort of union would be allowed to play music? What next - ban joke-telling unless you're being paid as a stand-up comedian?

[thunderbird13]

OK I avoided this thread becaue I assumed its more the about the professional musicians but as I more the part timers joining in here goes :

I have always been in bands that have been very very average ( either covers or originals ) and in them I've only ever played free gigs - and have counted myself lucky to get them !
BUT the problem with doing that is that after a while you begin to value yourself less , ( well for me anyway ). I see other players in bands playing what I play but getting paid for it , probably not much ,BUT getting paid and the question I ask myself is why am I not getting paid for it ? Am I not good enough ?

I think a better question for this thread would be Do you or your band deserve to be paid ?

[BigRedX]

I think a lot of misunderstanding has come about because the OP simply hasn't expressed the original sentiment particularly well. Not all bands and gigs are equal. Each one needs to be taken on its individual merits, and it is up to the musicians involved to decide what they will and will not do for the money (or lack of) involved.

In order for the OP's views to be taken more seriously, he needs to expand fully on his musical situation. Are the gigs with covers or originals bands, is he a full time member of the band or a dep, what genre(s) of music is he playing? All these things will influence the consensus as to when playing for free is appropriate or not. I sense form the wording of his initial post that some specific situation has prompted this and it would be useful to know what it was.

Another thing that I think many musicians forget is that music is a creative and therefore totally subjective phenomenon. Even when talking about covers bands, one band or musician is not an exact replacement for another. There is the old adage that you get what you pay for. Just because one band will play for free doesn't mean that a venue can't make more money out of putting on another (more popular) band who will be asking a realistic fee for playing.

[chris_b]

[quote name='thunderbird13' timestamp='1343126084' post='1745563']
....I think a better question for this thread would be Do you or your band deserve to be paid?....
[/quote]

If someone else is making money out of your playing then why aren't you?

[paul torch]

surely "professional" musicians have to start somewhere?

I know that at the start of my design career I regularly did "gigs" for free to get the experience and show my talents off. In fact I still do the occasional free job depending on the circumstances. It's an accepted thing.

[chris_b]

[quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1343127245' post='1745592']
....I know that at the start of my design career I regularly did "gigs" for free to get the experience and show my talents off. In fact I still do the occasional free job depending on the circumstances. It's an accepted thing....
[/quote]

Doesn't make it right, and if after your free work you were expected to carry on for free you'd soon realise that it wasn't the best way for you to be working.

[paul torch]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1343127535' post='1745606']
Doesn't make it right, and if after your free work you were expected to carry on for free you'd soon realise that it wasn't the best way for you to be working.
[/quote]

That wasn't the way it worked for me. If I'd continued to not be paid then I would have realised that it wasn't the career for me and found some other way to make a living. Sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate.

I do know some companies that string this type of thing out as long as possible. That is not right and if I found myself in that position I would say it's time I was paid or move on.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1343123194' post='1745470']
nail on its head,
afaik hobbies are for the bedroom and the garage and who would expect to get paid for their hobby? soon as you start competing with other bands for paying gigs it aint a hobby any more.

I gig cos i love it, but it also has to pay some bills, i don’t have a high paying day job to subsidise a hobby these days.
[/quote]

AFAIAC unless it's a MAJOR source of your income, it is a hobby.

If you want to make it more than a hobby, then you probably need to change some things. IMO the type of music you play doesn't matter. You don't need to "sell out" in order to be paid for playing music that you like. You might need to reconsider the other musicians that you are playing with, the venues you are playing, and (probably most importantly) consider the fact that to turn up at a venue and play some music is simply not enough if you want to be paid for it.

Edited July 24, 2012 by BigRedX

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1343128526' post='1745634']
You might need to reconsider the other musicians that you are playing with, the venues you are playing, and (probably most importantly) consider the fact that to turn up at a venue and play some music is simply not enough if you want to be paid for it.
[/quote]

This is what I meant by deserving to be paid - is your band run like a business or is it just a few blokes who know most of the songs in your set , turn up in jeans and a t shirt and play for a laugh

BUT isnt there an underlying assumption that both extremes can't be accompdated

[gjones]

Yes, but usually they are crap because if you'll play for free you must be. Of course if you're an originals band, getting paid nothing is par for the course in my experience. Saying that I'm amazed at the peanuts even covers bands are paid in my neck of the woods. The fees haven't increased since I started playing in the eighties.

[MarkG3]

I'm in an originals band and we play as we enjoy it, I don't even think about pay, my pay is someone after saying that was really good and how they enjoyed it. If we turned down all the 'free' gigs, we would of only done about 5 gigs in 11 years.

Edited July 24, 2012 by S9_S12_Bass

[Stan_da_man]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1342875086' post='1742184']
Supply and demand I'm afraid.
[/quote]
+1.

If my band turns down a gig because we're not getting paid then there are a hundred other bands in my city who will take the gig and get paid nothing.

No wonder it's almost impossible to get anywhere in an originals band nowadays.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Stan_da_man

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Stan_da_man' timestamp='1343142241' post='1745963']
+1.

If my band turns down a gig because we're not getting paid then there are a hundred other bands in my city who will take the gig and get paid nothing.

No wonder it's almost impossible to get anywhere in an originals band nowadays.
[/quote]

No. At the risk of sounding like a broken record the only reason for an originals band to play for free is because they want to.

There are paying gigs out there for bands playing their own material. You will probably need to put in more effort to get those than you need to for the free gigs, but they do exist.

Put on a show when you play. Make use of all your contacts. Get to know other bands in your genre. If your home town doesn't want to know then play somewhere else - if you're being paid you can afford it.

However playing for free because you believe there is no other way to get gigs is just defeatist and all it shows is that you've already given up.

[RhysP]

[quote name='slobluesine' timestamp='1342878702' post='1742285']
....a gig is about music not shifting beer, or maybe i've got it all wrong
[/quote]

If you're playing in a pub, whether you're being paid or not, the only reason you are there is to (hopefully) increase the bar takings - most landlords couldn't give a f*** about the music.
If you don't bring the punters in & keep the tills ringing all night you won't be playing there again, paid or unpaid.