Bass-Thing Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1341498087' post='1720074'] Likely the rights to the the Buzzard bass include the right to any means of producing an exact copy. The fact that Rob was forced to destroy the moulds has sometimes been presented as though it was an assurance for Warwick that he would not make any more, at other times it has been presented as just Warwick being spiteful because they had the financial means to bury Status Graphite and were determined to have their way. [/quote] Ok thanks for that Chris. I understand what you mean but do you know HOW he was forced? IE Did somebody put a gun to his head and give him a sledgehammer or was it just a court order which he has said he complied with? I would have thought also that regardless of rights to any means of production, you can't destroy or have somebody destroy their own property without compensating them financially. Of course if Rob did accept any such compensation, it probably means he hasn't just buried them under the patio after all . I wonder if HP Wilfer has a video of the moulds being broken, that he uses to cheer himself up occasionally. You don't fancy asking him personally do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Bass-Thing' timestamp='1341503205' post='1720176'] Ok thanks for that Chris. I understand what you mean but do you know HOW he was forced? IE Did somebody put a gun to his head and give him a sledgehammer or was it just a court order which he has said he complied with? I would have thought also that regardless of rights to any means of production, you can't destroy or have somebody destroy their own property without compensating them financially. Of course if Rob did accept any such compensation, it probably means he hasn't just buried them under the patio after all . I wonder if HP Wilfer has a video of the moulds being broken, that he uses to cheer himself up occasionally. You don't fancy asking him personally do you? [/quote] I've conversed at length with Dawn (Green) about this. They [i]were[/i] required to destroy the mould by Warwick. Warwick (irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the matter) have a great deal more financial (and, therefore, legal) clout than Status do. Given the choice of "Do what you're told" or "We'll sue you to the point of ruin" there's little real option for an otherwise financially viable operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Bass-Thing' timestamp='1341503205' post='1720176'] Ok thanks for that Chris. I understand what you mean but do you know HOW he was forced? IE Did somebody put a gun to his head and give him a sledgehammer or was it just a court order which he has said he complied with? I would have thought also that regardless of rights to any means of production, you can't destroy or have somebody destroy their own property without compensating them financially. Of course if Rob did accept any such compensation, it probably means he hasn't just buried them under the patio after all . I wonder if HP Wilfer has a video of the moulds being broken, that he uses to cheer himself up occasionally. You don't fancy asking him personally do you? [/quote] If a court ordered the moulds destroyed, they'd have to be broken up. After all, it would likely declare the rights to the design as the sole property of Warwick, therefore you would not be able to own a means of making a copy. I'm not sure there was ever any legal action though, Warwick could sue Rob Green into bankruptcy ten times over with money down the back of the bait room sofa and they could threaten as such with little effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeCee Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 It's quite amusing that a company that has borrowed from other people in the past would be so reluctant to let what is a pretty niche manufacturer produce his own product and one sufficiently distinctive (all graphite vs. wood). After all Nobby Meidel = Steinberger, Streamer = Steinberger/Stuart Spector and the Star bass and Jack Bruce signature models both draw from earlier designs while not slavish copies. It may have been decided in a court of law (was it a German one?) that HPW was mostly responsible for the design of the Buzzard, but the other party to the conversation, Entwistle, wasn't exactly around to say otherwise was he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeCee Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Bass-Thing' timestamp='1341402515' post='1718317']You don't hear about Alembic or Jaydee trying to stop them building Kingbasses, nor do you see Fender bothering anymore to try and stop jazz and p bass copies. They are all confident enough in the strength of their own brands and so should Warwick.[/quote] Oh, I'm pretty sure Fender would if it could. Think of all the royalties/licensing fees they have had to pass on over the years because they didn't adequately protect their designs in the past (unlike it seems HPW). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I think the problem wasn't so much that Warwick were a big company and Status the little one.... but that as much as I love Warwicks - I'm willing to bet the status buzzard was better in almost every way. The problem is Status are too good at what they do! If they weren't any good I doubt it would be a problem, in the same way all the 70-80's fender copies from Japan weren't a problem to fender till they started being very good. My guess is that when Spector wanted royalties Warwick could tilt the tuners just enough to make it different but Status didn't have the funds to fight a court case to suggest that their product was sufficiently different (and that Entwhistle had designed it..... but here's an interesting thing... you look at Entwhistle's book of basses.... and there were some he obviously had some input on the design... the Gibson artist thing (that he didn't like), the Alembics.... and then the Warwick/Status Buzzard.... and some bits obviously were Warwick's invention... but there is a strong design trend going through them....the Buzzard in many ways is a variation on the Alembics he was playing (and they were influence by Gibson shapes) ... and warwick (and apparently Modulus too) then took those ideas on a bit further... John Entwhistle claims that it was his design/idea and takes the graphite thing one step further and goes to a local graphite bass company, saves them from Markkingism, and gets them to make the same shape bass........ and at some point despite John saying he designed it, and despite the fact that it's derivative of so much of his other basses... Warwick have a bit of paper from a court saying that they designed 80% of it... how they worked out 80% i don't know.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1341521187' post='1720558'] If a court ordered the moulds destroyed, they'd have to be broken up. After all, it would likely declare the rights to the design as the sole property of Warwick, therefore you would not be able to own a means of making a copy. I'm not sure there was ever any legal action though, Warwick could sue Rob Green into bankruptcy ten times over with money down the back of the bait room sofa and they could threaten as such with little effort. [/quote] OK if a court orders you you to do something you actually have to do Jack sh*t! This is why billions of £$€ a year are written off because if you lend money to the destitute you might as well burn it and why people who have been told by a judge to pay me what they owe me haven't! If you had said here's the video, I'd be pretty depressed right now but I'm not because you haven't and Rob Green isn't soft! I notice the Warwick bloke has suddenly gone very quiet. [quote name='GeeCee' timestamp='1341522195' post='1720576'] Oh, I'm pretty sure Fender would if it could. Think of all the royalties/licensing fees they have had to pass on over the years because they didn't adequately protect their designs in the past (unlike it seems HPW). [/quote] We have ended up with fender Japan which in my humble opinion wee wees on Fender USA from a great height. Nothing can touch the neck on a Geddy Lee (and now the 70s RI P-Bass which is basically the same neck). Fender are still considered the original and the best and are doing very well from what I can tell. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all and the greatest bass I have ever played was a prototype Fender Jazz Bass. This was probably made by Mexicans who's descendants now work in the mexican factory, but whatever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Bass-Thing' timestamp='1341529218' post='1720700'] OK if a court orders you you to do something you actually have to do Jack sh*t! This is why billions of £$€ a year are written off because if you lend money to the destitute you might as well burn it and why people who have been told by a judge to pay me what they owe me haven't! If you had said here's the video, I'd be pretty depressed right now but I'm not because you haven't and Rob Green isn't soft! I notice the Warwick bloke has suddenly gone very quiet. [/quote] Why would he bother. He makes basses, he still can make basses and leave the buzzards to Warwick- I doubt he would have made more than a few dozen even if he had been allowed. John Entwhistle fans can now go to [s]warwick [/s] dean for their signature model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick_Official Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Bass-Thing' timestamp='1341529218' post='1720700'] OK if a court orders you you to do something you actually have to do Jack sh*t! This is why billions of £$€ a year are written off because if you lend money to the destitute you might as well burn it and why people who have been told by a judge to pay me what they owe me haven't! If you had said here's the video, I'd be pretty depressed right now but I'm not because you haven't and Rob Green isn't soft! I notice the Warwick bloke has suddenly gone very quiet. We have ended up with fender Japan which in my humble opinion wee wees on Fender USA from a great height. Nothing can touch the neck on a Geddy Lee (and now the 70s RI P-Bass which is basically the same neck). Fender are still considered the original and the best and are doing very well from what I can tell. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all and the greatest bass I have ever played was a prototype Fender Jazz Bass. This was probably made by Mexicans who's descendants now work in the mexican factory, but whatever... [/quote] Hey guys, with all due respect...this isn't my argument. I'm here for customer support and to share in the forum...hope you understand. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harleyheath Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Hay Warwick, welcome to the forum! I won't lie I love Warwick's, I did own a thumb NT which was gorgeous, I'd hankered after one for years, an finally got one from the States, sadly I sold all my basses to go to guitar building college but the thumb was the last to go, was lovely to play. I love the Streamers too. I really did not know that about Warwick and Framus, that was really quite interesting and I love tit bits of info like that, thanks, it reminds me of the Dan, Kent, Arron Armstrong thing, I love it when things get passed down and would love nothing more for my daughter to take over making from me, although she's more interested in barbie at the mo, lol. Anyways welcome. As far as the other stuff goes i'm not well enough informed to comment so I wont, all I can say is I miss John Entwhistle and his playing, man Im proud to have such great and awesome players come from ole blighty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1341530200' post='1720709'] Hey guys, with all due respect...this isn't my argument. I'm here for customer support and to share in the forum...hope you understand. Thanks! [/quote] Fair enough, but you did bite my head off somewhat when I raised the issue. I'm happy to leave it alone but it would be nice if the possibility of a collaboration between Warwick and Status-Graphite were considered. All the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote name='Bass-Thing' timestamp='1341566840' post='1720966'] Fair enough, but you did bite my head off somewhat when I raised the issue. I'm happy to leave it alone but it would be nice if the possibility of a collaboration between Warwick and Status-Graphite were considered. All the best [/quote] He did not bite your head off, Garey's been helpful and answered a lot of questions, so be polite, he's a useful source for us Warwick players, and potential Warwick players. The Entwistle stuff is all bollocks anyway, it's not Garey's place to answer any questions about that tiny piece of history, and JE, had he still been still around, probably would have ended up with a series of different manufacturers trying to build him the perfect bass anyway. If Fender had got their act together early on and protected their body shapes aswell as their headstock designs, they would have made more cash licensing them and the bass and guitar landscape would probably look a lot different than it does today, with many fewer boring F clone instruments out there. If you think it's unfair on Rob Green, well, that's just the way business works sometimes, you have to protect your own company's interests within the law. And anyway, the two times I have contacted Status about buying a Steamline and a Kingbass, I was told they would let me know when they are available. They never did (twice), so I stuck with Warwick, and I'm glad about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1341569787' post='1721033'] He did not bite your head off, Garey's been helpful and answered a lot of questions, so be polite, he's a useful source for us Warwick players, and potential Warwick players. The Entwistle stuff is all bollocks anyway, it's not Garey's place to answer any questions about that tiny piece of history, and JE, had he still been still around, probably would have ended up with a series of different manufacturers trying to build him the perfect bass anyway. If Fender had got their act together early on and protected their body shapes aswell as their headstock designs, they would have made more cash licensing them and the bass and guitar landscape would probably look a lot different than it does today, with many fewer boring F clone instruments out there. If you think it's unfair on Rob Green, well, that's just the way business works sometimes, you have to protect your own company's interests within the law. And anyway, the two times I have contacted Status about buying a Steamline and a Kingbass, I was told they would let me know when they are available. They never did (twice), so I stuck with Warwick, and I'm glad about that. [/quote] Nice avatar. Looks like my dad. Regarding your comments, I think the politest thing I can say is that I feel the same way about them, as you do about 'the Entwistle stuff'. It seems highly unlikely we are going to agree on much so I suggest we leave it there and move on. All the best to you and Garey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick_Official Posted July 6, 2012 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 Thanks guys. My intention was to give a simple bit of fact for an answer and leave it at that, rather than enter into a debate that really isn't relevant to my position. I'm more than happy to answer all questions to the best of my ability, and am grateful to be welcomed on this forum. I appreciate all the comments and feedback! Please let me know if there is anything I can assist with. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote name='Bass-Thing' timestamp='1341589641' post='1721524'] Nice avatar. Looks like my dad. Regarding your comments, I think the politest thing I can say is that I feel the same way about them, as you do about 'the Entwistle stuff'. It seems highly unlikely we are going to agree on much so I suggest we leave it there and move on. All the best to you and Garey [/quote] Arsey git Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote name='Warwick_Official' timestamp='1341530200' post='1720709'] Hey guys, with all due respect...this isn't my argument. I'm here for customer support and to share in the forum...hope you understand. Thanks! [/quote] As a representitive of the Warwick brand though, perhaps you could bring us some closure on this debate though, saying as it has raged on for a while now and remains very contentious, particularly amongst UK bassists with a particular affection for Status and John Entwistle. I know whats done is done inasmuch as the fact that Status will never be able to make another Buzzard, but the I'm sure the forum would benefit from seeing the facts of the matter presented from Warwick's point of view. You obviously have connections within the Warwick brand, I assume it would not be too difficult for you to speak to someone who could give you the facts? I have a feeling that if I reply to H.P Wilfer's email with a question of this nature he probably won't reply. My argument for this disclosure is purely academic as I think the Buzzard bass is a real train-wreck of the a design but I would still like to know the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Is it not that simply the rights for the design of the bass lies with one company and they would like to remain the ones that build it? - I mean, it's a bit like Fender wanting to build Rickenbackers with their name on instead? It was asked about a collaboration - maybe a one off could be interesting, but I really don't think that Warwick would naturally outsource building instruments to another company for any reason as they have a massive factory of their own that can churn out quality instruments probably at double the speed and half the cost to them. Just a thought. Anyway, maybe this discussion needs having elsewhere being as it is actually Garey's introduction thread that is being wildly derailed lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 That said, it would not surprise me if the whole episode had left such a sour taste in Rob's mouth that he didn't want anything more to do with the Buzzard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johngh Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote name='Chris2112' timestamp='1341595634' post='1721652'] That said, it would not surprise me if the whole episode had left such a sour taste in Rob's mouth that he didn't want anything more to do with the Buzzard. [/quote] I was lucky enough to play one of John's Status Buzzards at the Status factory, Rob was delivering it to John the next day. It was jaw droppingly brilliant. If there is any regret I've had bass playing wise, it's not buying a Status Buzzard while they were still being made. Can we have this as the last word on the Status/Warwick episode please. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 [quote name='Johngh' timestamp='1341597310' post='1721688'] I was lucky enough to play one of John's Status Buzzards at the Status factory, Rob was delivering it to John the next day. It was jaw droppingly brilliant. If there is any regret I've had bass playing wise, it's not buying a Status Buzzard while they were still being made. Can we have this as the last word on the Status/Warwick episode please. Thanks [/quote] Wow! Deeply envious! A perfect way to draw a line under the whole episode. Thanks for sharing Johngh (and sorry about the other business too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Johngh cropped my post and couldn't remember what I had said, I can't be arsed to retype it either, and so we shall leave the Buzzard for now (in this thread). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 here's a nice distraction: [media]http://youtu.be/tx6pSnq9EvI[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 but thats not on a warwick.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5C9AEqaqRw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1341648522' post='1722188'] but thats not on a warwick.... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5C9AEqaqRw[/media] [/quote] Great playing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Thing Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1341644160' post='1722153'] here's a nice distraction: [media]http://youtu.be/tx6pSnq9EvI[/media] [/quote] Brilliant. Shame he wasn't playing a Buzzard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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