LukeFRC Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 does an ash bass sound better than an alder body bass through laptop speakers? or does it depend on if it is a mac or Pc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Any attempt at pretending you know science falls over at using 'tone' to mean 'timbre'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1329675499' post='1545709'] Any attempt at pretending you know science falls over at using 'tone' to mean 'timbre'. [/quote] I though we already decided that the type of timbre doesn't make much difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='Max Normal' timestamp='1329669305' post='1545574'] [size=4]Blahblahblahblah.........[/size] [size=4]I’m wondering how easy it would be to measure the relative partial/overtone profile of a really great sounding bass, and try and replicate it by predicting what the partial profile of a new bass would be. [/size] [/quote] The first, and most difficult thing to do will be to try & get a definitive answer as to what constitutes "A really great sounding bass". Let us know when you've done that - it'll be fascinating to hear the answer. I won't be holding my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1329675780' post='1545716'] I though we already decided that the type of timbre doesn't make much difference? [/quote] Confusing eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I think we all need to step away from the Topic, take a deep breath, and see if we can't agree on some basic common ground. For example, surely we can all agree that a coffee table made of mahogany does a better job of supporting two coffee mugs and the Sunday Times than one made of MDF? Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1329672586' post='1545645'] AFAIK good plywood (Baltic Birch et al) is uniformly dense and predictably stable... what other parameters need to be taken into account to make a decent plywood bass, do you think? [/quote] I'd guess that would mainly result in instruments that had very similar acoustic behaviour between one and the next. The thing about plywood is the way they stack layers with the grains in differing orientations to ensure uniform strength in different directions. The grain structure makes wood very complicated with elastic modulus that is itself orientation-dependent, and I don't know how that would affect vibration propagation in a composite structure like ply. Broadly speaking in a single bit of wood you'd expect it to propagate better along the grain as cross-grain would effectively mimic constrained-layer-damping, and that'd be most noticeable for higher frequencies (are quartersawn necks supposed by those who believe in tonewood at all to result in a brighter, 'tighter' sound than flat sawn?). It's not my field but I think for prediction purposes you'd have to model wood as not just one but a whole series of mass-spring-damper systems all interacting. It's probably easier to do it intuitively as a builder than scientifically! But you could get at least some idea from just playing around with the piece of wood you're dealing with, bearing in mind that one important property resonant frequency is indeed dependent on overall size/mass as well as material just as people have suggested (think xylophone keys). By the way I'm sure a bass built of baltic birch would actually sound fine. [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1329673217' post='1545660'] 1. Whatever it is that the videos show, it is not an accurate, scientific representation of how a bass string (or any other string for that matter) vibrates. Please tell me that you're not attempting to pass off vid 1 as remotely scientific [/quote] I assumed the vids were just there for the visuals, to illustrate the way that a string vibrates as a complex wave that can be broken down to a set of sine waves. Yes, what you see is actually a strobing interaction with the (constant) video capture frequency but that doesn't really matter for these purposes and it's hardly what I'd call unscientific - no-one is inferring anything about any particular frequency per se just that a string vibrates in quite a complicated pattern. If you actually know the shutter frequency and can tune it in relation to a known string fundamental frequency, you could use it to look at specific vibrational nodes etc, but that's taking it a lot further than simply introducing the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1329673217' post='1545660'] Edit: I notice you have included the word 'aspergers' (referring, I assume, to medical condition that falls within the Autism spectrum) in your keywords list. Care to enlighten us? [/quote] In my opinion a large proportion of the people who post on basschat regularly have a smidgeon of bass guitar related aspergers in their psychological makeup. That probably includes me too. I think the neck and pickups contribute most to the sound of a bass - I've learned this from experience, having swopped a lot of necks and pickups in my time. And of course there's the famous video of the guy on talkbass who swopped the body of his alder Jazz Bass with a plank he found in his shed, then recorded a demo with the original bass and one with the body replaced with the plank. Could anybody tell the difference? I'm not telling! Go find the video on Talkbass for yourself. Edited February 19, 2012 by gjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1329676357' post='1545729'] ...surely we can all agree that a coffee table made of mahogany does a better job of supporting two coffee mugs and the Sunday Times than one made of MDF? Right? [/quote] If you like! I tend to just lie on the floor anyway. Furniture seems [i]so[/i] elitist in these straitened times. Digressing slightly, why is there only MDF? Why is no LDF or HDF available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1329676479' post='1545732'] By the way I'm sure a bass built of baltic birch would actually sound fine. [/quote] Wow, thanks for the very detailed response! I may make a P-Bass out of Baltic Birch as an experiment. I've been thinking about quality plywood for some time, since I made a Bill Fitzmaurice J12 from the same material. And yes, I need to get out more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1329675607' post='1545712'] No two bits of wood are the same. . . . . . . Too many variables going on to say what effect the wood has on the end result. [/quote] Yep, and I'm also surprised that nobody has mentioned how the original wood is sawn. Flat-sawn, quarter-sawn or rift-sawn could all be expected to make a difference. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_sawing"]http://en.wikipedia..../Quarter_sawing[/url] I'm sure the amp eq controls and plucking technique and position would completely overwhelm any subtle effects that the body material might impart on the sound of a bass. Of course, the placebo effect can be extremely potent and if someone [u]believes[/u] they're playing the best-sounding bass in the world then I wouldn't be at all surprised if it improves their performance. (and since we're comparing qualifications, I've got a cycling proficiency certificate from school, so I think that qualifies me to have an opinion. ) Edited February 19, 2012 by flyfisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='gjones' timestamp='1329676517' post='1545734'] And of course there's the famous video of the guy on talkbass who swopped the body of his alder Jazz Bass with a plank he found in his shed, then recorded a demo with the original bass and one with the body replaced with the plank. Could anybody tell the difference? [/quote] The neck pocket was better on the plank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='gjones' timestamp='1329676517' post='1545734'] In my opinion a large proportion of the people who post on basschat regularly have a smidgeon of bass guitar related aspergers in their psychological makeup. That probably includes me too. I think the neck and pickups contribute most to the sound of a bass - I've learned this from experience, having swopped a lot of necks and pickups in my time. And of course there's the famous video of the guy on talkbass who swopped the body of his alder Jazz Bass with a plank he found in his shed, then recorded a demo with the original bass and one with the body replaced with the plank. Could anybody tell the difference? I'm not telling! Go find the video on Talkbass for yourself. [/quote] Here's the TB thread: Alder versus Plank: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/scrap-lumber-bass-vs-alder-bass-can-you-tell-difference-743932/"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/scrap-lumber-bass-vs-alder-bass-can-you-tell-difference-743932/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1329676814' post='1545747'] Wow, thanks for the very detailed response! I may make a P-Bass out of Baltic Birch as an experiment. I've been thinking about quality plywood for some time, since I made a Bill Fitzmaurice J12 from the same material. And yes, I need to get out more. [/quote] Sorry I wasn't able to give a more useful answer. But actually thinking about it I'd suggest finding a plywood with a really good stiffness:weight ratio, something prized in acoustic instruments, so maybe something like poplar over birch. The bonus there is, even if you find the tonal difference completely negligible then at least you don't have a back-destroyingly heavy bass! Just watch out for neck-dive...now if you really want to experiment neck wood is rarely mentioned but since it's the thinnest, longest part of the structure supporting the string its properties ought to be more important than the body. [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1329677115' post='1545754'] Yep, and I'm also surprised that nobody has mentioned how the original wood is sawn. Flat-sawn, quarter-sawn or rift-sawn could all be expected to make a difference. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_sawing"]http://en.wikipedia..../Quarter_sawing[/url] [/quote] Err, actually I mentioned it and so did Max in the original post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1329676479' post='1545732'] I assumed the vids were just there for the visuals, to illustrate the way that a string vibrates as a complex wave that can be broken down to a set of sine waves. Yes, what you see is actually a strobing interaction with the (constant) video capture frequency but that doesn't really matter for these purposes and it's hardly what I'd call unscientific - no-one is inferring anything about any particular frequency per se just that a string vibrates in quite a complicated pattern. If you actually know the shutter frequency and can tune it in relation to a known string fundamental frequency, you could use it to look at specific vibrational nodes etc, but that's taking it a lot further than simply introducing the topic. [/quote] ... not forgetting of course that the camera inside the body of the instrument is vibrating as the notes are played. You may not call it unscientific, but I do. Perhaps it's best if we agree to disagree on that point. There's plenty of other things going on here that are ripe for discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1329677115' post='1545754'] ... Of course, the placebo effect can be extremely potent and if someone [u]believes[/u] ... [/quote] The placebo effect is extremely potent even if you don't believe. I'm a tonewood denier but I still think my mahogany bass sounds darker, although of course it doesn't if I mess with the tone controls, the amp, hand position, bridge pickup etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1329677306' post='1545761'] Here's the TB thread: Alder versus Plank: [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/scrap-lumber-bass-vs-alder-bass-can-you-tell-difference-743932/"]http://www.talkbass....ference-743932/[/url] [/quote] Very interesting! I got it right - by guessing. I couldn't tell the difference. I think this statement says it all, really: [color=#000000][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,]'Your goal should be to get the tone in your head to come out of your fingers, not your bass'[/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1329677115' post='1545754'] (and since we're comparing qualifications, I've got a cycling proficiency certificate from school, so I think that qualifies me to have an opinion. ) [/quote] Certainly does - in this discussion it makes you an expert on cyclic motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1329677581' post='1545772'] ou may not call it unscientific, but I do. Perhaps it's best if we agree to disagree on that point. There's plenty of other things going on here that are ripe for discussion. [/quote] If you like...to me it's 'scientificness' really depends what point is being made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='gjones' timestamp='1329676517' post='1545734'] In my opinion a large proportion of the people who post on basschat regularly have a smidgeon of bass guitar related aspergers in their psychological makeup. That probably includes me too. [/quote] Aha! Somebody noticed that line. At this point I'm kinda wondering if the whole thing's a giant wind-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='gjones' timestamp='1329676517' post='1545734'] In my opinion a large proportion of the people who post on basschat regularly have a smidgeon of bass guitar related aspergers in their psychological makeup. [/quote] I don't accept your diagnosis. Anyway what are your qualifications? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1329677968' post='1545789'] Aha! Somebody noticed that line. At this point I'm kinda wondering if the whole thing's a giant wind-up. [/quote] I also noticed the keyword [b]'geek' [/b]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Ahh, this old chestnut again. My take on it: Do different pieces of woods make (Electric) guitars sound different? Theoretically...yes. Does the wood you use to make a guitar influence the sound more or less than the shape of the guitar? (different guitar shapes will have different vibrational modes). No idea. Is the difference between two pieces of the same wood species bigger than the difference between two pieces of wood made from different species? No idea. I suspect the answer is "yes, but only sometimes". Does the effect of the wood make much difference at all when compared to the effect of your pickups or your amplifier? I very much doubt it. I find it funny when musicians say things like "its obvious that...". Many brass musicians swear blind that the metal you make their instruments from makes a massive difference to the sound. They'll tell you "its obvious". Loads of scientific studies have been done on this topic and whether or not the metal you've made a trumpet from really matters is anything but "obvious". (since we're playing the "how big are your forum testicles" game: I've got a PhD in musical acoustics) Edited February 19, 2012 by uncle psychosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1329680343' post='1545867'] (since we're playing the "how big are your forum testicles" game: I've got a PhD in musical acoustics) [/quote] So that sounds pretty much like the dog's bollocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1329680343' post='1545867'] (since we're playing the "how big are your forum testicles" game: I've got a PhD in musical acoustics) [/quote] [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1329681035' post='1545885'] So that sounds pretty much like the dog's bollocks. [/quote] We're going to need a bigger kennel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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