PA advice - what should I know before buying a PA?

[magee]

[size=3][color=#000000]Hello,[/color]
[color=#000000]my band is ready to gig on the Glasgow pub circuit, and that means we need a PA. While I would have a reasonable grasp of bass and even guitar kit, I have no idea about PAs and I think I'm probably the most gear-savvy person in the band, so I think heads will turn towards me with quizzical looks when it comes to buying. [/color]

[color=#000000]I hoped you guys could help me with some advice. [/color]

[color=#000000]We will be on a super-tight budget because the band hasn't started earning yet. I see from Gumtree that you can get old beat-up 150W heads and speakers for £100-150 all in, but I don't think we need to go quite that cheap. Probably £200-400 is our available budget. It will be second hand, I imagine.[/color]

[color=#000000]We are a blues four-piece: drums, bass, electric guitar and singer/harmonica player. We are not anticipating mic-ing the instruments, so we'll need to amplify three vocals. There may be a fourth mic if the singer wants to have a mic for his harmonica set to different levels/eq. [/color]

[color=#000000]What I hoped you could help with are questions like:[/color]

[color=#000000]- what wattage will we need to play small-medium pubs (actual pubs rather than big separate function rooms)?[/color]
[color=#000000]- are cheap PAs OK or is it a false economy? What's the difference between a good and bad one?[/color]
[color=#000000]- are we better spending more on the amp/mixer or more on the speakers?[/color]
[color=#000000]- are the all-in-one amps/mixers OK or should they really be separate?[/color]
[color=#000000]- what should we look for when buying second hand – how do you tell a dud?[/color]
[color=#000000]- what should we be looking to spend?[/color]
[color=#000000]- are there any brands we should seek out/avoid?[/color]

[color=#000000]I would really appreciate any guidance you can give. I feel totally out of my depth. [/color]

[color=#000000]Thanks,[/color]
[color=#000000]Matthew[/color][/size]

Edited January 11, 2012 by magee

[stevie]

I'm doing a similar thing for my band. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who can tell you what brands are good and what aren't, but for starters....

With your budget, I'd definitely go second hand. Although you can usually get nearly new PA for around half the new price, I think you'll probably end up with something older for that money. If you get decent brands, reliability shouldn't be too much of a problem. Put as much as you can into the speakers and go for a vocal PA only - i.e. forget about bass cabs. A 12 and a horn is probably the optimum configuration for vocal cabs. For pubs you should be able to get away with 250 watts of amplifier power, although more is always better.

Check that all the inputs on your mixer are working and check for noise from the control knobs, especially sliders. Avoid piezos and bullet tweeters in your speakers (like in the old HH PA cabs). Make sure the horns are working on your PA cabs - listen to some music through them. There were some very cheap Peavey speakers for sale on here not so long ago that might be worth checking out.

[deepbass5]

I have been running the PA in our band for 23 years now ( 4/5 piece functions covers) Just vocals and we use back line so similar.
If you get it right and you all are listening musos fine. That means not too loud for the audience or venue. I find having vocals through the PA which is closer to the audience and back line behind, can, with the right attitude, be self limiting. Meaning If you can't hear the vocals turn down your amps. That said Drums can be the thing that sets the volume the Guitar and Bass then has to match.
Go for second hand, i would say Peavey Black widows as they are efficient and that means you will get away with a reasonably sized amp to drive them. 15" and horn i use now but gigged hi-sis 12" for years with a 300 watt mono mixer amp.
so check out PV Hi-sis range with black widow speakers not the newer cheap ranges, A peavey mixer amp 300 watts a side with graphic are very versitile and can be split to drive monitors if you like.

[Mog]

I'd be thinking about getting a reliable powered desk and cheap full range speakers to start with.
A desk that would pump 500 watts bridged to start with should be fine.
Look for Peavey, Alesis etc. Your budget will restrict you to those brands. If you're luckie you might find a cheap Mackie or Yamaha.
Speaker wise, if you can find a pair of full range tops to match the desk it will be fine to start with. You can add subs later.
Treat it as a rolling process. Once you get a few gigs done and raise cash get the subs. Do a few more shows and upgrade the Desk. (Start looking at seperates at this stage if funds allow).
Do a few more shows and upgrade the speakers etc etc.
The best thing ye could do after you have a solid base is to enter an agreement that the the money raised from the next 10 or so gigs gets put straight back into a PA fund, no exceptions.
Depenting on what ye earn this could be around £1000-£3000. Thats plenty to spend on new PA gear.

One more thing. Use the best mics you can get when starting off with lower end gear. It helps with sound quality, feedback etc.

[magee]

Thanks for this guys, this is great advice. Any more from anyone else much appreciated.
Matthew

[vsmith1]

There is major thing that you need to consider: foldback monitors for the vocalists. These can be stage wedges or other speakers used as floor monitors or side fills. But vocalists will struggle if they cannot hear themselves.

I also agree about getting good mics, don't forget mic stands and my oh my lots of cables!

[SebCarr]

Can you hire a PA for the first couple of gigs? It may seem like a waste of money, but you'll get an idea (particulalry if you hire a couple of different setups) of what's too big/too small, how they sound, whether your budget is going to cut it or whether you do need to save a little more...

[Monckyman]

I`m not a fan of powered mixers,but there are some decent ones out there for not much cash.
Soundcraft and Peavey come to mind, and they usually offer decent power, graphic EQ and aux outs for wedges.
Alternatively, look at powered speakers from Mackie or (gasp) behringer.
The benefit of this is you aren`t locked in to your mixer and can upgrade as and when you need.
300 watts a side is plenty for vocals in all but the largest pubs and you may get a little kik drum in there too if you don`t push it.
Then if you want you can add a pair of subs at some point giving you a decent 1.5k p.a.
One small rig I`ve been using in a 150-200 capacity bar is the LD Dave15" range [url="http://www.ld-systems.com/293-1-ld-dave-15-g2.html"]http://www.ld-system...dave-15-g2.html[/url]
The amp is in the sub, and it gives 400watts for the sub, and 150 watts each for the tops.

We stick everything through it, full kit, keys, bass, guitar and vox, and it sounds great.
I`ve seen one or two of these on eBay for around £350-400.
You would still need a mixer and a couple of speaker stands though

Edited January 12, 2012 by Monckyman

[GremlinAndy]

I fully agree with Monckyman. I don't like the powered mixer approach, and would (given a limited budget) try the powered speaker route...

However the powered mixer *does* offer onboard effects (or the ones I've used do) so you don't need to buy seperate reverb units etc...

On the other hand a mixing desk can be a daunting bit of kit for the unsavvy pa user....

For your needs it might be best to keep it as simple as poss.

Ermmmm I hope that helps... Sorry.

[Monckyman]

[GremlinAndy]

Edited January 14, 2012 by GremlinAndy

[warwickhunt]

As much power as you can afford with more inputs than you 'think' you need!

Try and source a set of Peavey Hisys cabs (the 15" Black Widow equipped should be in your price bracket). We had a set and gigged pubs with them for 15 years without ever blowing a speaker (though a few Hisys had blown horns in the early days they were generally sorted under warranty), sold our cabs last year for £100 to a local DJ and they are still going strong despite being used 5 nights a week since I sold them!

[StraightSix]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1326301116' post='1495174']
A 12 and a horn is probably the optimum configuration for vocal cabs. For pubs you should be able to get away with 250 watts of amplifier power, although more is always better.
[/quote]

I agree with this - what are you intending to put through the PA...?

If it's just for vocals, I would also suggest going with 12" + horn cabs...the 15" cabs I've tried are always hit and miss with vocals (same for wedge monitors).

[JTUK]

Your budget isn't much help, I'm afraid... and I'd tend to hire/borrow something to give your a reference of what you like and is decent-ish.
And when your band starts turning over money then buy.

Many bands do a decent enough job with the music and forget that it can easily be spoiled by the vox not coming across well enough so don't skimp on the cabs or mics.

FWIW..and IMO.. PV is ok...and there is a lot of it around and it will go on for ages ( hopefully ) but the sound isn't good enough for
a decent vocalist.
JBL isn't the name it was as it has reliability issues, IME..when it used to the benchmark ..altho if you can get decent cabs, then maybe. At least the sound will be ok.
Mackie is the same sort of thing... just try and stay away from their cheap stuff.

Out of all the names I have mentioned above, I wouldn't put them above EV which might be available at reasonable money.

Basically, I would resist a quick and futile buy..potentially..and get £1000 ear-marked for a P.A..
You may be lucky in that you could pick up some Martin Audio cabs for half that inc controller which will blow all the stuff I have mentioned above out of the water, IMO.

So expect £500 for decent SH cabs..and £500 for amps/desk and SM 58mics and cables.

Anything less and you have to really spot a bargain and be very lucky.. IMV

[fonzoooroo]

Hunt down the bargains. ... That'll decide if it's a powered desk or seperate desk and amp...

As above, for speakers, go for old Peaveys or something. You might never have to "upgrade" from them!

Don't forget monitors... if your drummer's anything like ours, he'll play a whole lot better when he can hear the vocal and guitar. (a spare channel on the desk'll let you run the guitar in even if it only gets sent to the monitors on an AUX send, and doesn't actually go "out front") I run a pair of ancient passive wedges that I bought for £50 off a 100W/ch H/H power amp (a further £50 from the cash converter!) - enough for small pub stages/corners.

Each buy your own mics, cables and mic stands. ... Lead vocal is more important than backing/harmony, so individuals can save money there (you don't necessarily all need SM58 or similar mics)

Other than that, avoid modern cheap amps... A mate of mine bought a 400W/ch power amp... the band stopped using it, and resorted to a Rotel 60W/ch hi fi amp, as it was louder!

[zzaass]

Hi, we were in similar situation a year ago and got a Yamaha Stagepass 500 Just for vocals.
It's plenty loud enough for loud pubs.
I probably wouldnt even have considered it but the singer was recomended it and just got it.
It's dead simple to set up, takes no room at all and we can just about manage without foldback.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1326379883' post='1496381']
I`m not a fan of powered mixers,but there are some decent ones out there for not much cash.
Soundcraft and Peavey come to mind, and they usually offer decent power, graphic EQ and aux outs for wedges.
Alternatively, look at powered speakers from Mackie [b]or (gasp) behringer.[/b]
The benefit of this is you aren`t locked in to your mixer and can upgrade as and when you need.
300 watts a side is plenty for vocals in all but the largest pubs and you may get a little kik drum in there too if you don`t push it.
Then if you want you can add a pair of subs at some point giving you a decent 1.5k p.a.
One small rig I`ve been using in a 150-200 capacity bar is the LD Dave15" range [url="http://www.ld-systems.com/293-1-ld-dave-15-g2.html"]http://www.ld-system...dave-15-g2.html[/url]
The amp is in the sub, and it gives 400watts for the sub, and 150 watts each for the tops.

We stick everything through it, full kit, keys, bass, guitar and vox, and it sounds great.
I`ve seen one or two of these on eBay for around £350-400.
You would still need a mixer and a couple of speaker stands though
[/quote] there PA stuff is actually pretty good for the price.

[bertbass]

In your situation I'd get an old 5 channel HH, Carlsbro, or Laney mixer amp, probably off ebay and a pair of 1 x12 plus horn cabs, also probably from ebay. A pair of speaker stands and you're away. If you can build cabs, try a couple of Bill Fitzmaurice Jack 10s or 12s. Seriously good cabs at a fraction of the price of quality gear and the're just as good if not better. Remember that you need 10 times the wattage to make it twice as loud so the difference between a cheap HH 130 watt mixer amp and a 500 powered mixer is not that great, speakers make more difference to output.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='zzaass' timestamp='1326564994' post='1498975']
Hi, we were in similar situation a year ago and got a Yamaha Stagepass 500 Just for vocals.
It's plenty loud enough for loud pubs.
I probably wouldnt even have considered it but the singer was recomended it and just got it.
It's dead simple to set up, takes no room at all and we can just about manage without foldback.
[/quote]

We started with the 220W version and even that is loud enough for many places (vocals only). We then added a separate mixer, a pair of Mackie SRM450s and a Mackie SWA1501 for larger venues and we use the Yamahas for stage monitoring. Seems flexible enough for us - anything bigger and the venue usually has its own PA anyway.

[brensabre79]

I agree, hire different setups for a few gigs so you know what works best for you, i.e how much power you need, how easy to setup, carry around etc. You can often also buy the setup at a discount from the hire co.

If not, once you know what sort of thing you need (mixer, amp etc.), compare different makes offering the same sort of products.

Look at the behringer PA stuff, its pretty solid for the money. Lots of S/H on eBay but better to get new at this level. Go for separates if you can, cheaper to replace/repair. Its not the best stuff but its excellent value.

[magee]

That is all brilliant advice, thank you all so much for your time. I now feel pretty ready to head out into the second hand market for some old, heavy, bulletproof gear.
Thanks,
Matthew