15" Speaker

[Monckyman]

Lo all.
Having now bought an Eden210t, I`m looking at finding a 15" driver to complement it and provide low end thump.
I`m mainly playing R&B, Electro dance/pop and increasingly, a few reggae tunes.
The Eden is plenty sharp and has loads of punch even loaded with Celestions but I reckon I do need something bigger for that bottom end especially when I push the volume.
So, I have an old(ish) EV ported cab that I bought in a deal. I haven`t used it at rehearsals or gig yet, and it has my old eminence em200 in it, which sounds quite nice at average levels.
When they are both plugged in to my Ashdown ABM500 the difference in volume and tone is enormous, with the Eden hogging the limelight.
What I`d like to know, is whether this cab can be useful, with the right driver in, with ideally, a more even match in volume at least.
I`ll be driving both cabs from an LM II.
The 15" wouldn`t have to be full range, I`m looking for a sub after all, but I suppose it wouldn`t hurt to have a full(ish) range 15" I could use on it`s own.
Or, should I save my cash and wait till an Eden115 xl comes along?
Dimensions of the Cab are:w450 h680 d410
It has two x 50mm wide by 50mm deep ports at the bottom.
Some pics here.







Your advice and opinions welcome.
Ta,
MM

[bremen]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1262479' date='Jun 9 2011, 11:40 AM']Lo all.
Having now bought an Eden210t, I`m looking at finding a 15" driver to complement it and provide low end thump.
I`m mainly playing R&B, Electro dance/pop and increasingly, a few reggae tunes.
The Eden is plenty sharp and has loads of punch even loaded with Celestions but I reckon I do need something bigger for that bottom end especially when I push the volume.
So, I have an old(ish) EV ported cab that I bought in a deal. I haven`t used it at rehearsals or gig yet, and it has my old eminence em200 in it, which sounds quite nice at average levels.
When they are both plugged in to my Ashdown ABM500 the difference in volume and tone is enormous, with the Eden hogging the limelight.
What I`d like to know, is whether this cab can be useful, with the right driver in, with ideally, a more even match in volume at least.
I`ll be driving both cabs from an LM II.
The 15" wouldn`t have to be full range, I`m looking for a sub after all, but I suppose it wouldn`t hurt to have a full(ish) range 15" I could use on it`s own.
Or, should I save my cash and wait till an Eden115 xl comes along?
Dimensions of the Cab are:w450 h680 d410
It has two x 50mm wide by 50mm deep ports at the bottom.



MM[/quote]

I use an Eminence Kappa Pro 3015LF in a cab slightly smaller than that and it's pretty deep Your cab, being bigger, should be even better. You might need to extend the ports, or block one off. PM me if you want me to calculate the ideal port size (can't do it at work).

Edited June 9, 2011 by bremen

[umph]

[quote name='bremen' post='1262516' date='Jun 9 2011, 12:12 PM']I use an Eminence Kappa Pro 3015LF in a cab slightly smaller than that and it's pretty deep Your cab, being bigger, should be even better. You might need to extend the ports, or block one off. PM me if you want me to calculate the ideal port size (can't do it at work).[/quote]
put a low pass on the 3015lf to for best results. Obviously you shouldn't be mixing drivers though

[Bigwan]

[quote name='umph' post='1262520' date='Jun 9 2011, 12:14 PM']put a low pass on the 3015lf to for best results. Obviously you shouldn't be mixing drivers though[/quote]

To the uninitaited that isn't obvious... especially with 90% of bass amp manufacturers ads showing mixed driver cab setups. No wonder folk make mistakes.

[Lozz196]

This Eden Nemesis 115 cab could be worth a look.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=128446&hl=eden"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=128446&hl=eden[/url]

I`ve an Eden Nemesis 410, and its a good cab, imo. Plus, with this being an Eden, the sizes will prob fit nicely together.

I was in fact going to buy this 115, but had to drop out, due to an overnight instant lack of funds.

The Bassmerchant retails these for £299, so a good price too.

[Monckyman]

Thanks for the advice and offer Bremen, the Kappa looks lovely, but the price is enormous!
Lozz thanks for the link.I`ve PMd
As to mixing drivers, I can`t help it, I`m too old fashioned not to want a 15 on the bottom end.
And the level I`m playing at it hardly matters anyway but I take your point.
I was thinking Deltalite series myself, but if that nemesis is about, it hardly seem worth spending up to £100 on a driver alone.
Having said that I`m listening to some Fever Ray through it right now and it isn`t half bad. I`ve always liked this cab as it`s so well made and sounds great. be a shame to just stick it back in the back bedroom.
I`ve just texted a P.A firm I work for to see if they have anything lying about unused I might try out.

MM

Edited June 9, 2011 by Monckyman

[JTUK]

Get an Eden XL cab to match it. Personally, I'd use another 210 XL.

I had the same decision the other week and I am so glad I got another 210.

[Monckyman]

Thanks for the reply JT, but as i`m sure you`re aware, they don`t seem to be plentiful, and they arent cheap.
Unless you came across a few you passed up on?

I think 2x210 is my ideal, but till then, I need a temp cheap solution, or one I can move on when the time is right.
MM

[jmsjabb]

What about an ABM 115 cabinet?

[Phil Starr]

All this stuff about not mixing drivers is just an old wives tale. The 'character' of a speaker is largely about frequency irregularities asnd if you mix drivers these are not likely to coincide so you might lose some character, but some characters do need a little turning down at times. There are problems with any multi driver set up too but this is as true of identical drvers as differing ones. Some combinations work and some don't and some of us like a coloured sound and some don't. You have to listen to judge whether a particular combination will work for you.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1263233' date='Jun 9 2011, 03:40 PM']All this stuff about not mixing drivers is just an old wives tale.[/quote]And old acoustical engineers. From your response I gather you're neither.
The advantage to identical drivers is that you always know what you'll get. With mixed drivers you never know what you'll get until you've got it, and that can turn out to be an expensive experiment.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1263395' date='Jun 9 2011, 10:43 PM']And old acoustical engineers. From your response I gather you're neither.
The advantage to identical drivers is that you always know what you'll get. With mixed drivers you never know what you'll get until you've got it, and that can turn out to be an expensive experiment.[/quote]
How rude.

and I'm both.

[Monckyman]

[quote name='jmsjabb' post='1263138' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:38 PM']What about an ABM 115 cabinet?[/quote]

Thanks for the replys gents.
I just sold an ashdown 115 last month.
I HAVE a cabinet, I just need a driver..A better one than ashdown provide
Doesn`t seem to be much diy spirit around here.

[geoffbyrne]

If not a 3015, how about a 2515 if the cab's big enough?

G.

[stevie]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1263233' date='Jun 9 2011, 08:40 PM']All this stuff about not mixing drivers is just an old wives tale. The 'character' of a speaker is largely about frequency irregularities asnd if you mix drivers these are not likely to coincide so you might lose some character, but some characters do need a little turning down at times. There are problems with any multi driver set up too but this is as true of identical drvers as differing ones. Some combinations work and some don't and some of us like a coloured sound and some don't. You have to listen to judge whether a particular combination will work for you.[/quote]
+1 - especially the bit about multi driver setups being flawed. But if you're going to do it, this is a sensible way of approaching it.

[Monckyman]

Right.
I`m going to shelve this project and just try a few 15s out at my local PA firm.
They hoard all sorts of crap
If I find something that significantly adds to my sound, then happy days, if not, the price is right..
Apologies for timewasting, gentlemen.
Ta,
MM

Edited June 10, 2011 by Monckyman

[Phil Starr]

I'm now feeling a bit guilty about not answering your original question and let some of the other posts distract me. The cab size will suit quite a range of drivers though you will need to adapt the ports. I gather you are just trying to fill out the bass a little so top end is less important. Do you have a budget in mind? If you find other drivers in your local shops tell us what they are and if the TS specs are available someone will advise you how to modify the ports. I'll look at drivers when I get more time. Gigging tonight.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1262720' date='Jun 9 2011, 02:20 PM']Thanks for the reply JT, but as i`m sure you`re aware, they don`t seem to be plentiful, and they arent cheap.
Unless you came across a few you passed up on?

I think 2x210 is my ideal, but till then, I need a temp cheap solution, or one I can move on when the time is right.
MM[/quote]


quick, quick, quick..??????

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Eden-D210-XLT-bass-speaker-/160599015502?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&rvr_id=239726578348&clk_rvr_id=239726578348"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Eden-D210-XLT-bass-s...id=239726578348[/url]

but I would add that I know nothing about e-bay myself...or the Dims of the cab and if it will stack

Edited June 12, 2011 by JTUK

[jmsjabb]

MM, could I ask what you didn't like with the ABM, as I was thinking about one?

[Monckyman]

[quote name='jmsjabb' post='1265797' date='Jun 12 2011, 10:02 AM']MM, could I ask what you didn't like with the ABM, as I was thinking about one?[/quote]
The ABM was fine for most of what I`m doing at the mo, bit of funk, disco, electro dance.
But when it came to the reggae it just wasn`t getting it.
I think for rock it`s excellent, it has a nice cut to it,but to be honest the limits of the speaker enclosure mean that ultra lows aren`t going to happen at the volume you`d like.
When I used the 115 extension it was much nicer, and the 410 was even better but that`s quite a large rig and I`m in my late 40s and could do without lugging it about and I`d already started gassing for a LMII.
So, if size isn`t a problem on bigger gigs,and you want the rock stack vibe,it`s great.
On smaller gigs where massive low end volume isn`t needed then the combo on it`s own is a good choice.
MM

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1263395' date='Jun 9 2011, 10:43 PM']And old acoustical engineers. From your response I gather you're neither. [/quote]
Manner, please! This isn't talkbass

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1266057' date='Jun 12 2011, 08:53 AM']Manner, please! This isn't talkbass[/quote]
Point of order, but acoustical engineers don't refer to accepted acoustical engineering practice as 'old wives tales', so clearly Phil does not earn his living designing loudspeakers. Not good speakers, anyway. And being named Phil I doubt that he is himself an old wife either. If she is her parents owe her an apology for giving her a gender inappropriate name.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1266089' date='Jun 12 2011, 02:14 PM']Point of order, but acoustical engineers don't refer to accepted acoustical engineering practice as 'old wives tales', so clearly Phil does not earn his living designing loudspeakers. Not good speakers, anyway. And being named Phil I doubt that he is himself an old wife either. If she is her parents owe her an apology for giving her a gender inappropriate name.[/quote]

To match your point of order, accepted acoustic engineering practice for musical instrument cabinets has different design goals and acceptable compromises to hi-fi style cabinets designed for accurate reproduction.

In the context of a budget alteration to a bass cabinet Phil's comment was a fair enough reality check, from his other posts it's clear he understands why there are limitations to mixing drivers - the physics behind it is something a child could understand (and yes, I have demo'd wave cancellation/reinforcement at a science festival for children). But from a practical perspective I've certainly never had serious problems mixing different bass cabs that were caused purely by phase compatibility, that weren't dwarfed by the usual limitations of playing in enclosed spaces or the inherent voicings of the speakers themselves. It's typically not nearly as a big a problem as having crap drivers or a poorly tuned cabinet and certainly not the deal-breaker it's sometimes made out to be when considering straightforward upgrades. In fact, mixing drivers often has the subjective effect of smoothing out the mid-range which can be beneficial.

I don't understand the need to be so combative about these things. Your own cab designs contain many compromises from the point of view of convenience/cost some of which go directly against 'accepted acoustic engineering practice'. Not least arrayed tweeters spaced greater than 1/2 wavelength for much of their operating range. Yet you count yourself an acoustic engineer, understand the compromises and for you and the majority of your builders they're acceptable.

Oh btw Phil was saying he is both 'old' and 'an acoustic engineer'. Hence 'both' in response to your 'neither'

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1266138' date='Jun 12 2011, 02:58 PM']To match your point of order, accepted acoustic engineering practice for musical instrument cabinets has different design goals and acceptable compromises to hi-fi style cabinets designed for accurate reproduction.

In the context of a budget alteration to a bass cabinet Phil's comment was a fair enough reality check, from his other posts it's clear he understands why there are limitations to mixing drivers - the physics behind it is something a child could understand (and yes, I have demo'd wave cancellation/reinforcement at a science festival for children). But from a practical perspective I've certainly never had serious problems mixing different bass cabs that were caused purely by phase compatibility, that weren't dwarfed by the usual limitations of playing in enclosed spaces or the inherent voicings of the speakers themselves. It's typically not nearly as a big a problem as having crap drivers or a poorly tuned cabinet and certainly not the deal-breaker it's sometimes made out to be when considering straightforward upgrades. In fact, mixing drivers often has the subjective effect of smoothing out the mid-range which can be beneficial.

I don't understand the need to be so combative about these things. Your own cab designs contain many compromises from the point of view of convenience/cost some of which go directly against 'accepted acoustic engineering practice'. Not least arrayed tweeters spaced greater than 1/2 wavelength for much of their operating range. Yet you count yourself an acoustic engineer, understand the compromises and for you and the majority of your builders they're acceptable.

Oh btw Phil was saying he is both 'old' and 'an acoustic engineer'. Hence 'both' in response to your 'neither'[/quote]
Thanks Lawrence. I'm tempted to say 'leave him, he's not worth it'.

The only reason I raised this is that advice from 'technical experts' is sometimes not that helpful and if it is too categorical it is often incorrect. Ultimately speaker design is about compromises even when you are designing for hi-fi and PA. When you are designing for musical instruments there are many more compromises which can give results some people will like. the idea that everyone who has ever used a 15 with a 4x10 was wrong or that all your speakers should be from the same manufacturer is a little odd. To claim that this is due to the laws of the universe and that anyone who disagrees can't possibly know any engineering principles is stretching things a little too far. Oh well.

For anyone following this I'd say that mixing speakers is a bit like blending drinks. If you mix Cabernet and Merlot then you will lose some of the character of each. You get some mid range smoothing, but some people like Cabernet/Merlot.

Cheers

[OzzyGreg]

.
[quote]And old acoustical engineers. From your response I gather you're neither.[/quote]

LOL!

Bill, from what I've seen/read on these forums you tell it like it is.
I like your style! I'm a bit the same at times!

(BTW, you put me in my place one time a few years back too!)



Greg