solo4652 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The drummer and singer in my band write songs. Over the past few weeks, I've been sent studio recordings of these songs so I can learn the bass parts. No music (no point - I don't read music), no chords, no tabs - nothing written at all. Just the MP3 files. I've asked for a chord chart - blank looks from the songwriters. I have spent HOURS listening to the songs, trying to write down the basic song structures and bass parts, and then re-writing them. So have the lead guitarist and the rhythm guitarist. The result is 3 different chord charts, which leads to much discussion and experimentation at rehearsals. It also leads to an obviously-bored singer who contributes by saying "can you all stop fannying around and get on with the song"! I'm getting so frustrated with this. I'm new to transcribing originals, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Is there an easy, foolproof way of coming up with a chord structure? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Lol. Kinda. Digital Music Mentor actually works surprisingly well. [url="http://www.sienzo.com/"]http://www.sienzo.com/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='solo4652' post='1233142' date='May 16 2011, 03:18 PM']....Is there an easy, foolproof way of coming up with a chord structure?....[/quote] The easiest way is ears! A chord chart is just that. Are you trying to write the dots/notes as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='chris_b' post='1233159' date='May 16 2011, 03:32 PM']The easiest way is ears! A chord chart is just that. Are you trying to write the dots/notes as well?[/quote] My ears have had a bashing over the weekend with this and they don't seem to hear what the guitarists' ears are hearing! I'm trying to write a chord chart which I can then use as the basis of a bassline. Is there a simple, free software program that will do this for me? I tried to download Digital Music Mentor but McAfee threw a complete wobbler, and it's taken me almost an hour to clean up the computer. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Everyone's approach is different - mine would be just to listen to the song repeatedly, and let it sink in. A line will present itself eventually... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='solo4652' post='1233254' date='May 16 2011, 04:36 PM']....My ears have had a bashing over the weekend with this and they don't seem to hear what the guitarists' ears are hearing!....[/quote] Don't assume that you are wrong. My experience is that too many guitarists don't listen to the song and just hear what they can play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='1233263' date='May 16 2011, 04:44 PM']Everyone's approach is different - mine would be just to listen to the song repeatedly, and let it sink in. A line will present itself eventually...[/quote] Well, that's what I've been doing, really. Trouble is, after a few listens I think I've got it but after few more listens, I convice myself that it's something else. And so it goes on. Headaches, confusion, irritation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='solo4652' post='1233294' date='May 16 2011, 05:14 PM']Well, that's what I've been doing, really. Trouble is, after a few listens I think I've got it but after few more listens, I convice myself that it's something else. And so it goes on. Headaches, confusion, irritation...[/quote] ...then it's time to stop listening for a bit! You'll be amazes how much the brain does behind the scenes when you're not listening. When you come back to it, it'll make more sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) how did the drummer/singer get the tracks into mp3 format without instruments? Other, now defunct, musicians? Forgive me, but it's hard to understand how the "songwriters" could compose without knowing the structure of the songs ... Why not post the mp3's here? I'm happy to give at least one of them a bash :-) Edited May 16, 2011 by markstuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='solo4652' post='1233142' date='May 16 2011, 03:18 PM']I'm new to transcribing originals, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something. Is there an easy, foolproof way of coming up with a chord structure?[/quote] Transcribing originals is the same as transcribing any other tune. You say you don't read-might this be an insentive to learn? That way you could jot down the charts for everyone and then you won't have the problem of 3 people with 3 different ideas. Likewise,how is your knowledge of chord theory(and the guitarists,for that matter)? You can still get basic charts written out for everyone if you understand how chords work. It sounds like no one can agree on what is happening,so one of you should take charge and write the charts for everyone..It will make things so much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='markstuk' post='1233317' date='May 16 2011, 05:34 PM']how did the drummer/singer get the tracks into mp3 format without instruments? Other, now defunct, musicians? Forgive me, but it's hard to understand how the "songwriters" could compose without knowing the structure of the songs ... Why not post the mp3's here? I'm happy to give at least one of them a bash :-)[/quote] The songs were recorded a few years ago. I'm sure the songwriters knew the structure of the songs, but it seems nothing has been written down. Thank you for offering to transcribe one of the songs, but that would be a major cheat by me! I'm going to have to read up on chord theory and keep on listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='Eight' post='1233144' date='May 16 2011, 03:22 PM']Lol. Kinda. Digital Music Mentor actually works surprisingly well. [url="http://www.sienzo.com/"]http://www.sienzo.com/[/url][/quote] I had a copy of Digital Music Mentor a couple of years ago. I thought it was fairly useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRatty Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Would something like Transcribe (www.seventhstring.com) help? I find its ability to slow things down, filter out certain sections and have a stab at which notes are present pretty useful. It could be considered a cheat but I consider it a practical aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='MrRatty' post='1233458' date='May 16 2011, 07:07 PM']Would something like Transcribe (www.seventhstring.com) help? I find its ability to slow things down, filter out certain sections and have a stab at which notes are present pretty useful. It could be considered a cheat but I consider it a practical aid.[/quote] Thanks - I'll have a look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='1233433' date='May 16 2011, 06:57 PM']I had a copy of Digital Music Mentor a couple of years ago. I thought it was fairly useless.[/quote] I suppose it depends on what you run through it - but I was quite impressed at the time. Haven't used it for ages since I prefer to do things the hard way for practice/training. Solo - I'll PM you in a sec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='Eight' post='1233512' date='May 16 2011, 07:44 PM']I suppose it depends on what you run through it - but I was quite impressed at the time. Haven't used it for ages since I prefer to do things the hard way for practice/training.[/quote] You might be correct that it depends what you run through it - I was probably expecting too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 If I was in that situation I'd start with roots, and then wait for everyone else to sort themselves out before fleshing out the rest of the the bass parts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='EssentialTension' post='1233522' date='May 16 2011, 07:56 PM']You might be correct that it depends what you run through it - I was probably expecting too much.[/quote] I suspect you had reasonable expectations and were understandably disappointed. I probably expected nothing and was surprised that it seemed to do a decent job of a Chas 'n' Dave tune. If memory serves, it can take a bit of work to whittle down the output from DMM into a decent chord chart since I think it identifies waaaay too many chords in a sequence. But you never know, might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepbass5 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) This is something you will get better and quicker at. I find it depends on the song, it is far better to learn it parrot fashion verse by verse chorus by chorus start to finish. Be aware of that guitarist they have a tendency to learn one verse and one chorus scribble an intro and a bridge and bobs your uncle. Many songs have some quirky alterations as they go on. So I always learn them. Top to bottom as a check. Down load for free ( [b]Best Practice [/b]) you can download your track into it and slow it down without changing key. Or use it to learn something in a different key, say to suit the singer. Really good for those tricky numbers with loads going on, where picking out the bass line is pretty hard. Our guitarist wanted to play Sweet child of mine in C, crazy I thought but I just used Best Practice. I need crib sheets and I use all three of these methods in an evening. Remember the worst handwriting is better than the best memory. 1. Just Learn it so you can engage with the audience and move about a bit 2. My own short hand which comprises of A4 sheet with basic root chord notes per bar in big felt pen, maybe with some written bits or runs where things need to be spot on and I may forget. 3. As a reader I occasionally write the whole thing out, usually on more moving lines that do not seem to follow a pattern and again need to be exact Good luck Edited May 16, 2011 by deepbass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='steve' post='1233541' date='May 16 2011, 08:11 PM']If I was in that situation I'd start with roots, and then wait for everyone else to sort themselves out before fleshing out the rest of the the bass parts[/quote] Yep - that's what I've tended to do. Problem is, we can't even always agree on the roots! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='deepbass5' post='1233751' date='May 16 2011, 10:19 PM']This is something you will get better and quicker at. I find it depends on the song, it is far better to learn it parrot fashion verse by verse chorus by chorus start to finish. Be aware of that guitarist they have a tendency to learn one verse and one chorus scribble an intro and a bridge and bobs your uncle. Many songs have some quirky alterations as they go on. So I always learn them. Top to bottom as a check. Down load for free ( [b]Best Practice [/b]) you can download your track into it and slow it down without changing key. Or use it to learn something in a different key, say to suit the singer. Really good for those tricky numbers with loads going on, where picking out the bass line is pretty hard. Our guitarist wanted to play Sweet child of mine in C, crazy I thought but I just used Best Practice. I need crib sheets and I use all three of these methods in an evening. Remember the worst handwriting is better than the best memory. 1. Just Learn it so you can engage with the audience and move about a bit 2. My own short hand which comprises of A4 sheet with basic root chord notes per bar in big felt pen, maybe with some written bits or runs where things need to be spot on and I may forget. 3. As a reader I occasionally write the whole thing out, usually on more moving lines that do not seem to follow a pattern and again need to be exact Good luck[/quote] Sounds like you and I have a very similar attitude to ensuring we know what we're doing. Like you, I learn the song top-to-bottom as well and as soon as I can. In fact, the rest of the band generally ask me if they're unsure about the overall structure of the song because they know I've probably listened to the song umpteen times. I perhaps tend to learn the song too well, too early because I don't like turning up at rehearsal semi-prepared and going at a song half-cocked. However, I then find it frustrating when other band members point out that what I'm doing is wrong (even though I send them my notes beforehand so they can check them). I too have crib sheets which sound just like yours. Often, I don't refer to them much - it's the act of writing them out that really helps me to learn the song. Steve (from Radcliffe) makes a good point above - perhaps the sensible thing might be to do the minimum amount of learning and transcribing for the first few rehearsals, let the others disagree/suggest alternatives, and try hard not to learn the song in too much detail too early in the process. My current (largely originals) band has a very different vibe to my previous (all covers) band, and I'm struggling to change from being expected to get it absolutely right to getting it generally right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='solo4652' post='1233919' date='May 17 2011, 08:14 AM']Yep - that's what I've tended to do. Problem is, we can't even always agree on the roots![/quote] Sounds like you're at a bit of an impasse, what's the band dynamic like? Does the songs originator put the songs out to the band to be modified by jamming/ discussion etc, or is it a case of "it's my song, play it like this"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solo4652 Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='steve' post='1233993' date='May 17 2011, 09:46 AM']Sounds like you're at a bit of an impasse, what's the band dynamic like? Does the songs originator put the songs out to the band to be modified by jamming/ discussion etc, or is it a case of "it's my song, play it like this"?[/quote] The song writers are fairly relaxed about the band modifying the songs, to be fair. I've had a bit of a breakthrough with some music analysis software that I've been sent. I've put some of the originals through it and it's come up with some very useful chord suggestions. When I played them, they sounded much better than any of our by-ear efforts. So, I've run off some copies for rehearsal tonight - might be the first time we've all played off the same songsheet. I'm really hoping it will save a lot of wasted time. We'll see. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 [quote name='wateroftyne' post='1233263' date='May 16 2011, 04:44 PM']Everyone's approach is different - mine would be just to listen to the song repeatedly, and let it sink in. A line will present itself eventually...[/quote] If I need to let songs sink in, I ALWAYS do something else at the same time. Drive, play a stupid game on my Blackberry with the music in the headphones, cook dinner, whatever. In a day or two, I'm humming parts of the songs without prompting or I get earworms and stuff. If it's complex, I will record the bass to the track and force myself to get it right and understand the arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='silddx' post='1237371' date='May 19 2011, 08:29 PM']If I need to let songs sink in, I ALWAYS do something else at the same time.[/quote] Tis good. I don't tend to do it so much when transcribing - but certainly if I need to write something in an unfamiliar style then I'll load myPod with suitable tracks and have it playing in the background for a few days while I absorb the feel (or try to, I should say). The only time it doesn't work is when that "something else" is playing Iron Maiden. Weird. Edited May 20, 2011 by Eight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.