Fanned frets

[ZMech]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1169672' date='Mar 20 2011, 04:38 PM']Actually the perfect intonation thing has been sorted (at least on guitars) and is a tad weird looking.

[url="http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=0&sgo=0"]http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php?go=0&sgo=0[/url]

I can't see how the fanned fret gives perfect intonation across all strings at all frets. The notes aren't in exact enough place across all frets and all strings to do that and even if they did a change of string guage would bugger it all up again.. There still has to be a bit of give and take somewhere down the line.

I would like to try a fanned fret though even if only for the ergonomic benefits .[/quote]

Interesting idea, not sure it's one i'll buy into. Seems like there'll be a whole multitude of other factors affecting the tuning during a gig, e.g. a bass getting cold in the case on the way then warming back up, any shodiness in technique, and the fact that the start of any note always sounds slightly sharper than the tail end.

None of the videos on their site seem to show a straing A/B test between one of theirs Vs a straight fret guitar.

Anyway, where did i leave my fretless?

[pietruszka]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1169604' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:41 PM']I think the reason there's no demand for them is because nobody's really that bothered about solving such a minor problem, especially not with such a sledgehammer solution.[/quote]


Again, my thoughts exactly. I feel I must apologise, I don't want my opinion to start a heated debate!

I understand and accept the theory behind it all, its brilliant in fact. But in my experience it makes little to no difference, I just get on with playing.
I feel the same about string tension, if the string tension is wrong, then just play a bass which has 'correct' string tension. Fanning frets seems like an extreme solution to, as TNIT puts it, a minor problem. If the frets are out of tune then surely that comes down to build, not straight frets. And string tension, never been a problem for me.

Its all rather geeky, like discussing what the quality of the gold plating is on the jacks, or the grade of lacquer used on the head stock and if that affects the tone.



Dan

[pietruszka]

[quote name='Zach' post='1169718' date='Mar 20 2011, 05:29 PM']Anyway, where did i leave my fretless?[/quote]


Yes!!

[icastle]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1169604' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:41 PM']I think the reason there's no demand for them is because nobody's really that bothered about solving such a minor problem, especially not with such a sledgehammer solution.[/quote]

I suspect that the majority of players didn't even realise they had a problem until the solution appeared.

[Sheldon Dingwall]

I'll step in here with a little history. Hopefully this will clear up some misconceptions.

Our history:
Early in my guitar building career I was getting requests for 5-string basses. The complaint was that the B-string was dull sounding and floppy. When I asked these potential customers if they'd tried the boutique/multi-laminate/fancy electronics brands or the big-brand Japanese and American brands they said yes - they all had the same problem. I didn't have a solution but to my mind it wasn't boutique construction or a big-budget. I turned down these orders.

As a kid I remember sitting at the piano and marvelling at the depth and complexity of the lowest notes. On a good piano those low notes are pretty amazing. In the piano world length is a big deal especially in concert situations where the notes need to speak with clarity, power and tightness to be heard by a large audience. To me the key was scale length. To test this I hacked together a nut that could slide up and down a Fender headstock. I installed a super long scale B-string on a P and slide this nut further and further down the headstock, re-tuning and listening as the scale length increased. In this case I had to go all the way out to 37" to get the B-string to match the E in tone and clarity. Great who's going to want to play a 37" scale bass. To me extending the scale of every string of a 5-string would destroy 4-strings to try and fix one.

One day I saw a photo of a Klein guitar with fanned-frets. It hit me that this provided the solution to getting the extended scale length needed by the B without compromising the whole instrument. Met Ralph Novak, built a prototype (boring details removed to save time and space) All I wanted to do was fix the B, when I witnessed the first prototype live the B was killer as expected, but what really caught me off guard was the power of the E, A and D-strings. They had a kick-drum like punch and clarity like I'd never heard or imagined before. Not a high-endy sterile clarity, but a powerful, guttural, organic clarity that was astounding.

All I wanted to do was fix the B but along the way we've discovered a few more advantages.

Clarity: How many clubs and concerts have you been to where you can hear bass but can't distinguish the notes? This is rarely a problem with pianos but way too often the case with bass guitar. The tight bottom-end and the more even string to string tone we get makes a huge difference here. Rarely do I see one of our basses played and not hear every single note the bass player is playing.

One thing about clarity that can't be emphasized enough is that the bass player's job is to communicate the groove to the audience. Like all musicians we as bass nerds get a little obsessive about minute details of our gear. What is the point if your audience can't hear what you're playing? All the '59 this, '62 that, '76 that means a great deal to us bass enthusiasts doesn't mean a thing to your audience. A tight, clear bottom end is a huge advantage in communicating effectively with your audience.

A second thing about clarity is that you can play tighter with the drummer if you both can hear the bass more clearly. This isn't such a big deal with in-ear monitors but without them it makes a huge difference. If you value a tight rythmn section don't underestimate clarity.

Intonation: It's better, in some cases a lot better, but I think that's more of a scale length thing than the fanned-frets themselves.

String tension: It's more even. You can attack the B like you would the E. You can attack the E like you would the A. This is of course not such a big deal on a 4 but it's pretty obvious on a 5. Some will argue that you can balance the tension by adjusting your gauges but this will be at the expense of intonation, tone consistency and clarity. Again, fixing one thing but making two or three other factors worse isn't a good solution IMO.

Ergonomics: I hear this a lot from our customers. I personally don't see an ergonomic advantage. YMMV

To answer the question of why haven't mainstream manufacturers adopted the fanned-frets? Look at the majority of these posts. Any mainstream marketer would look at the tone of these posts and "set their phasers on relic" . We're small enough that we can ignore the mainstream and focus on performance minded players.

I've been doing this long enough to know that some will read this and "get it". Some won't. Some like their tone to be a "wash", some want their tone to be more punchy to serve the groove. Some are scared (or made un-comfortable) by the look of the frets or body shapes, some see the adventure in it. It's all good.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Sheldon Dingwall

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1169827' date='Mar 20 2011, 07:12 PM']To answer the question of why haven't mainstream manufacturers adopted the fanned-frets? Look at the majority of these posts. Any mainstream marketer would look at the tone of these posts and "set their phasers on relic" . We're small enough that we can ignore the mainstream and focus on performance minded players.[/quote]

And I think this is it, in a very neat nutshell.

[markstuk]

+1... (although I'm one of the converted) .. [quote name='Happy Jack' post='1169841' date='Mar 20 2011, 07:19 PM']And I think this is it, in a very neat nutshell.[/quote]

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1169827' date='Mar 20 2011, 07:12 PM']To answer the question of why haven't mainstream manufacturers adopted the fanned-frets? Look at the majority of these posts. Any mainstream marketer would look at the tone of these posts and "set their phasers on relic" . We're small enough that we can ignore the mainstream and focus on performance minded players.[/quote]


Sorry Sheldon I must ask for clarification on this point, I'm reading it as people who don't use fanned frets are not performance players.

[gjones]

Intonation isn't a huge problem for most bass players as long as the bridge is set up correctly. But it is an issue for guitarists. I've noticed it myself, that even when my strat is set up perfectly, some chords sound less in tune than others. It would be awfully difficult to play bar chords though, on a guitar with fanned frets.

[pietruszka]

Sheldon,

Thank you for the input! I still don't think it's something I'll buy into, certainly not in the near future. I would still like to have a go on one! Clarity isn't something any one has ever remarked negatively about my sound, these basses clearly (as I see it) are for those who would benefit from them not getting the clarity from other basses. We all play differently and so have different requirements.

I certainly have learnt more about Dingwalls at least.


Dan

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm not trying to be awkward but I stand by my post that the Dingwall B's I have tried have been world class but neither here nor there compared to a GB or Roscoe 35" for example and the Xotic Jazz bass Bass direct had at bassday was probably the most even feeling out of all I tried that day.

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1169416' date='Mar 20 2011, 12:49 PM']Keeps your fingers cool when you're playing.[/quote]
and trim your nails if you can get it going fast enough

[lojo]

Its in our nature to keep creating a new tweak to anything, be it tea bags or basses

Sure it must have its scientific truths, and im sure alot of people will love owning one, but to me its a tea bag with a string on

We'll get to the point where our basses are 100% perfectly balanced and tuned throughout the fret board to a dogs ear, then someone will sell us an effect pedal to make it sound retro again


Having said that, I wouldn't rule out owning one in 5 years time

[Owen]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1169856' date='Mar 20 2011, 07:33 PM']Sorry Sheldon I must ask for clarification on this point, I'm reading it as people who don't use fanned frets are not performance players.[/quote]

You know, I don't think for a second that Sheldon was inferring that.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='owen' post='1169998' date='Mar 20 2011, 08:45 PM']You know, I don't think for a second that Sheldon was inferring that.[/quote]


I doubt it too but that's how it read to me.

[Grand Wazoo]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1169682' date='Mar 20 2011, 04:50 PM']I understand the principles of the fanned fret system and how it does do what its meant to but Im sure GW will be along to explain it better than I ever could but its still a very minor issue for 99.999999999% of the bass playing community from beginners to pro's the world over so I dont see that as anyone being blinkered or anyone waiting to come around to it really. Then coupled to the fact some people like the sound of a particular make and model of bass (you all know what I like ) and everyone has there favourite ones all those would have to be made available in a fanned version. I prefer the sound of a Ray to all Jazz basses from a Fender to GW's Dingwall and all inbetween so I wouldnt swap anyway.
See how I have talked myself into the anti fanned fret mob again? Im not at all and happy for whoever to play whatever but a[i] tiny tiny [/i]intonation issue compared to some of the greatest basses in the world for me does not make me feel as though they should be embarrased in its company IMO Like I said before Bernies GB Rumours sounded better overall than the Dingwall to me (and a few others that were there but its not for me to name names) so the intonation issue (If there is a real issue there) would come second to that anyway for me.[/quote]

No mate I am sorry but I have grown tired of explaining it to a bunch of pea brain troglodytes and I don't mean you, in fact you are more than welcome to catch up with me in town sometime to demo my basses anytime, time off provided.

[purpleblob]

I've not tried a fan fretted instrument (so far) but one thing I've always hated about the low B on a 6 string is the lack of string tension when compared to the E and A strings. I've played several sixers and different guage strings and each has suffered the same problem.

I doubt anyone listening to me play would notice any issues but I certainly do. This sounds to be the issue the fanned frets are aiming to fix and had I not now decided that E-C five strings were the way forward for me, I'd definitely be trying a fanned fretted instrument out to try to solve this problem.

Edited March 20, 2011 by purpleblob

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' post='1170006' date='Mar 20 2011, 08:49 PM']No mate I am sorry but I have grown tired of explaining it to a bunch of pea brain troglodytes and I don't mean you, in fact you are more than welcome to catch up with me in town sometime to demo my basses anytime, time off provided.[/quote]
I would love a dabble I'm always happy to try more stuff out and have changed my mind on lots of stuff over the years, 3 years ago you wouldn't of caught me on a 5'er through a class D amp now it's my main setup!

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1169856' date='Mar 20 2011, 01:33 PM']Sorry Sheldon I must ask for clarification on this point, I'm reading it as people who don't use fanned frets are not performance players.[/quote]

Performance minded as in high-performance, as in us, F-bass, MTD, Roscoe, many others etc.

[LawrenceH]

I think this thread is very confused due to certain features of the Dingwall basses v other basses being attributed to fanned frets. There may be improvements over particular instruments but it'll be because the Dingwall is just better built and/or set up.
There is no inherent reason intonation is better on a fanned fret system v parallel fret.
There is no inherent reason that a single string will sound any better/different on a fanned system v a string of equivalent scale length on a parallel fret guitar. I say this because I feel Sheldon's own post is a bit misleading there when he goes on at length about clarity.

The fanned fret system WILL alter the tonal balance across the strings - for better or worse, depending on what you like (personally I like the slightly different character across the strings and feel it's an inherent part of the instrument).
The fanned fret system will feel different to play.

I think I said on a previous thread, the ergonomic aspect is what appeals to me far more significantly than any tonal change. I find the wrist position playing low down the neck tobe tiring and have often thought before I even saw the Dingwalls that an angle on it would help me, especially playing in F/F#. I'm not denying the Dingwalls sound great, I've not tried them only heard clips of one and it sounded like a very nice bass. But I've heard plenty of non-fanned fret basses that sound great as well and the ONLY meaningful direct comparison would be two otherwise identical instruments, one with fanned frets and one without.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1170083' date='Mar 20 2011, 09:36 PM']Performance minded as in high-performance, as in us, F-bass, MTD, Roscoe, many others etc.[/quote]


Fair play.

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1169895' date='Mar 20 2011, 01:50 PM']I'm not trying to be awkward but I stand by my post that the Dingwall B's I have tried have been world class but neither here nor there compared to a GB or Roscoe 35" for example and the Xotic Jazz bass Bass direct had at bassday was probably the most even feeling out of all I tried that day.[/quote]

I could think of worse brands to be compared to. I meant to try that Xotic. They're pretty impressive looking.

In our own experiments with 35" vs 37" (we offer both) 37" offers more richness, 35" is warmer. If you spent more time comparing in a quieter environment you might see things differently - or not. Try and get a Ferrari fan to like a Porsche, it's not going to happen.

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='purpleblob' post='1170021' date='Mar 20 2011, 02:57 PM']I've not tried a fan fretted instrument (so far) but one thing I've always hated about the low B on a 6 string is the lack of string tension when compared to the E and A strings. I've played several sixers and different guage strings and each has suffered the same problem.

I doubt anyone listening to me play would notice any issues but I certainly do. This sounds to be the issue the fanned frets are aiming to fix and had I not now decided that E-C five strings were the way forward for me, I'd definitely be trying a fanned fretted instrument out to try to solve this problem.[/quote]

IME a shorter scale really makes the C-string sing. Way warmer and bass-like instead of pingy and guitar-like.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Sheldon Dingwall' post='1170097' date='Mar 20 2011, 09:43 PM']I could think of worse brands to be compared to. I meant to try that Xotic. They're pretty impressive looking.

In our own experiments with 35" vs 37" (we offer both) 37" offers more richness, 35" is warmer. If you spent more time comparing in a quieter environment you might see things differently - or not. Try and get a Ferrari fan to like a Porsche, it's not going to happen.[/quote]

Yes Im glad you can see I like and appreciate the quality of your basses and Im not knocking them. That Xotic was good BTW. My own playing standard probably isnt up to the need for perfect intonation across the board either. Again to be compared to all the brands I mentioned should and was meant as a compliment

The only thing with your example is it would be like trying to get a Ferarri fan to like a Porsche with its grill mounted wonky
I have played them in isolation at BassDirect before and when I had a blast on Dave Swifts at BassDayuk last year (Lovely bass) it went strangely quiet for a few minutes on the GB/EBS stand! Probably some oiks trying to get clips of my poor playing to put on youtube! Lol.

[Sheldon Dingwall]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1170084' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:36 PM']I think this thread is very confused due to certain features of the Dingwall basses v other basses being attributed to fanned frets. There may be improvements over particular instruments but it'll be because the Dingwall is just better built and/or set up.
There is no inherent reason intonation is better on a fanned fret system v parallel fret.
There is no inherent reason that a single string will sound any better/different on a fanned system v a string of equivalent scale length on a parallel fret guitar. I say this because I feel Sheldon's own post is a bit misleading there when he goes on at length about clarity.[/quote]

Didn't mean to exclude other builders when talking about clarity. Just really into the importance of it as I've become more aware.


[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1170084' date='Mar 20 2011, 03:36 PM']The fanned fret system WILL alter the tonal balance across the strings - for better or worse, depending on what you like (personally I like the slightly different character across the strings and feel it's an inherent part of the instrument).[/quote]

I get the appreciation for the different characters of each string. A good player can use that to their advantage. In a dense mix it makes more sense to me that an instrument with a more similar tone balance on each string will be easier to eq and fit in the mix than one with 5 different tone signatures.