Futurama = Tokai = Fender?

[Jacqueslemac]

I popped into my local-ish bass shop today, just for a nose around. I mentioned that I was on the hunt for a Fender Jaguar bass, but had been told they'd been discontinued because of the enduring strength of the Yen against the US dollar.

His reply was that the scarcity of Japanese Fenders had little to so with exchange rates, but more to do with the fact that a long-term deal between Fender and Tokai had come to an end, so Fender's Japanese manufacturing capability has been severely reduced.

Apparently, Fender had outsourced their manufacture to Tokai, but that when the deal came to an end, Fender had neglected to extend use of the copyright on their designs. As a result, Tokai has continued to make Fender-type Jazzes and Precisions, Strats and Teles that are almost indistinguishable from the real Fender "crafted in Japan" thing (as they're being made on the same production lines using the same materials).

However, Tokai isn't using its own brand. It owns the Futurama brand and that's what is on the headstock. I was told that the sticker (the font is very, very close to Fender's own - the F in particular!) is applied on top of the lacquer, so can easily be removed, should you so wish.

The shop didn't have any basses in stock, but the guitars looked very convincing to the untrained eye (and £249!).

How much of this is true and how much a sales story to shift budget instruments?

[umph]

confusing when i think futurama i think selmer!

[bh2]

The 'Ricks' look nice... the Puncher P is a tad pricey.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

That story sound like a load of bovine excrement. The Shop probably doesn't have a deal with FMIC, so can't get any Fenders so is are pushing what they do have. I doubt those instruments are made in Japan.

[Musky]

Tokai has been making copies of Fender instruments since the seventies, and are quite happy to stick their own name on the headstock. Why on earth would they feel the need to suddenly stick another brand on there?

In short, it's BS.

[Jacqueslemac]

So who is making Futurama-branded instruments nowadays, then? I've seen the branding on the headstocks, so someone is!

[Gray]

Hi,

I have a Futurama Strat that I brought from Music Ground in Leeds (for £90) a couple of years ago. At the time the shop was full of them and they claimed to own the brand name...if thats any use to anyone. The Strats not a bad instrument except for very poor electronics.

Gray

[icastle]

[quote name='Jacqueslemac' post='1047647' date='Dec 4 2010, 06:51 PM']Apparently, Fender had outsourced their manufacture to Tokai, but that when the deal came to an end, Fender had neglected to extend use of the copyright on their designs. As a result, Tokai has continued to make Fender-type Jazzes and Precisions, Strats and Teles that are almost indistinguishable from the real Fender "crafted in Japan" thing (as they're being made on the same production lines using the same materials).[/quote]
MIJ Fenders have been produced in the Tokai factory since 1997.
Not convinced that a copyright screwup has allowed Tokai to continue manufacturing good copies - they were making good copies back in the 1980s whilst the MIJs were being made in the Fujigen factory.
[quote name='Jacqueslemac' post='1047647' date='Dec 4 2010, 06:51 PM']However, Tokai isn't using its own brand. It owns the Futurama brand and that's what is on the headstock. I was told that the sticker (the font is very, very close to Fender's own - the F in particular!) is applied on top of the lacquer, so can easily be removed, should you so wish.[/quote]
There are two seperate companies - Tokai China and Tokai Japan.
The Futuramas are made on the Tokai China production line along with Chinese Tokai branded items which are about 1/3 the price of the Japanese ones!
The MIJ Fenders are (or perhaps it's now "were") made on the Tokai Japan production line.
[quote name='Jacqueslemac' post='1047647' date='Dec 4 2010, 06:51 PM']How much of this is true and how much a sales story to shift budget instruments?[/quote]
Well, the pertinent facts are true enough, but the way those facts have been laid out is a little dubious in places.

The Futurama brand name is pretty old - it was originally held by Selmer and later passed on to Hagstrom before disappearing in the mid 1960s.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I don't know about Futurama and Fender's copyright, Tokai does make cerain models for Fender though.

I own a Japanese LP style Tokai guitar, if they are making Fender copies up to a good standard (particularly their basses have always been cheaper copies rather than actually competing with Fender), they'll be formidable.

The only reason I can think that they'd change name is that they've been known for decades for making rip-offs, maybe they want to start fresh if they're taking it in a new direction.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1047832' date='Dec 4 2010, 10:33 PM']I don't know about Futurama and Fender's copyright, Tokai does make cerain models for Fender though.

I own a Japanese LP style Tokai guitar, if they are making Fender copies up to a good standard (particularly their basses have always been cheaper copies rather than actually competing with Fender), they'll be formidable.

The only reason I can think that they'd change name is [i][b]that they've been known for decades for making rip-offs[/b][/i], maybe they want to start fresh if they're taking it in a new direction.[/quote]

but not exactly known for making bad rip-offs...

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='1047839' date='Dec 4 2010, 10:55 PM']but not exactly known for making bad rip-offs...[/quote]

I've just checked my LP and it's Chinese, not Japanese like I thought, but it's a brilliant guitar, so I know they're not bad rip-offs, trust me.

The Fender style basses they do are pretty much limited to the Hardpuncher (P) and Jazzsound (J), both of these are relatively budget priced basses (I've not had a go on either, so I can't comment on quality, I'd imagine them to be around MIM standard though knowing Tokai). If they were to start producing higher quality instruments after just making ones in that price bracket for so long, they'd be lumped together quite quickly by Joe Public instead of having them looked at individually.

[Lfalex v1.1]

When I think of Futurama, I think of Bender. Not Fender.

[icastle]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1047832' date='Dec 4 2010, 10:33 PM']The only reason I can think that they'd change name is that they've been known for decades for making rip-offs, maybe they want to start fresh if they're taking it in a new direction.[/quote]

They're not renaming Tokai Japan stuff - the Futurama's are from Tokai China

[StevieC]

Reading this thread I'm actually quite pleased that my MIJ 'Fender' Jazz Marcus Miller 4 is in fact a Tokai. Just goes to show things aren't always what they seem...

Steve

[karlfer]

I hope the Futurama basses are better than the original 60's ones.
My 1st bass (Christmas '74) was a 2nd hand Futurama loosely based on a Jazz.
Cost £10.
Pure sh*te!

Karl.

Ah, that's how the naughty word editor works

Edited December 5, 2010 by karlfer

[Musky]

[quote name='icastle' post='1047781' date='Dec 4 2010, 09:14 PM']The MIJ Fenders are ([b]or perhaps it's now "were"[/b]) made on the Tokai Japan production line.[/quote]
That's the bit that rings true about this story. In 2008 Fender Japan started marking their instruments as Made in Japan again, rather than Crafted in Japan. Given the story about Made in Japan being associated with Fuji Gen's production of instruments perhaps there has been a change of manufacturers again. Fuji Gen?

[Emmaemme]

[quote name='StevieC' post='1047975' date='Dec 5 2010, 08:44 AM']Reading this thread I'm actually quite pleased that my MIJ 'Fender' Jazz Marcus Miller 4 is in fact a Tokai. Just goes to show things aren't always what they seem...

Steve[/quote]

Yeah, you paid £1000 for a Tokai !!

Hold on, does this mean that my Geddy Lee...

Edited December 5, 2010 by Emmaemme

[icastle]

[quote name='Emmaemme' post='1048014' date='Dec 5 2010, 09:46 AM']Hold on, does this mean that my Geddy Lee... [/quote]

...yes indeed Guitars by George off of the ASDA production line...

[pete.young]

[quote name='karlfer' post='1048002' date='Dec 5 2010, 09:30 AM']I hope the Futurama basses are better than the original 60's ones.
My 1st bass (Christmas '74) was a 2nd hand Futurama loosely based on a Jazz.
Cost £10.
Pure sh*te![/quote]
In the late '70s, I owned an original Futurama bass from the '60s, a Hagspiel Coronado IV, branded 'Futurama'.

If you scroll down past the 6string you can find one here: [url="http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/Hagstrom_future_is_past.htm"]http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/Hagstrom_future_is_past.htm[/url]

Mine was an excellent bass with a huge tone. I wish I still had it. Rumour has it that it found it's way to Richard Sinclair of Caravan/Hatfield and the North fame at one point.

[icastle]

[quote name='Musky' post='1048006' date='Dec 5 2010, 09:32 AM']That's the bit that rings true about this story. In 2008 Fender Japan started marking their instruments as Made in Japan again, rather than Crafted in Japan. Given the story about Made in Japan being associated with Fuji Gen's production of instruments perhaps there has been a change of manufacturers again. Fuji Gen?[/quote]

Don't know for certain but, given that they have the capacity and previous experience with Fender. I'd say it was a distinct possibility.

Quite a varied and long history - [url="http://www.fgnguitars.com"]http://www.fgnguitars.com[/url]

[icastle]

[quote name='StevieC' post='1047975' date='Dec 5 2010, 07:44 AM']Reading this thread I'm actually quite pleased that my MIJ 'Fender' Jazz Marcus Miller 4 is in fact a Tokai. Just goes to show things aren't always what they seem... [/quote]

When Fender go off to Mexico or Japan looking for a manufacturer, they have a minimum specification which the factory will be 100% be contracted to meet - this protects the all important brand image.
When you buy a MIM or MIJ you are buying a product that Fender has ensured meets the criteria that they set against the MIA.

They take this very seriously - the MII range was cr*p so the Americans invaded them

[stingrayPete1977]

There is some big love out there now for the Tokai top of the range stuff maybe more than us bass players think? Mid range Les paul (Love rock) are now the same price as a Gibson, EBS_freaks guitarist has one that cost £3K or there abouts! Hardly cheap copies anymore.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1048049' date='Dec 5 2010, 10:45 AM']Where you looking at the Chinese or Japanese versions though.

The Jap one RRPS around the £800 mark and the Chinese is more CV territory.[/quote]

I've never seen the Japanese ones, I didn't even realise they do them.

The problem with Tokai is they don't advertise themselves very well, the shop I work at deals them but they don't even have Jazz sounds listed in the catalogue. In fact I think the only bass the do have is their version of the EB0.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1048161' date='Dec 5 2010, 12:50 PM']The Japanese are the main ones I think. Then they went to Korea and then like Epiphone and the like production went out to China.

I think the only palce to look is on the tokai uk website. Although there are a few on the Pricelist not on the website which is a bit odd.

And searching for the part numbers doesn't show much.

all going to plan I'll have more details in the new year and hopefully have a few in my hands

Edit whats the EB0 like compared to the EPi? and are you sure its not an EB3?[/quote]

Well as a dealer for Tokai you'd expect us to have the full catalogue. We shouldn't really have to check the website. It is pretty bad, I was talking to the owner the other day and he didn't even realise they did J and P type basses, he just assumed the Gibbo copy was the only bass they did (can't remember the specs of it.). We don't actually have it in stock though so I can't tell you how good it is. It's likely to be better than the Epiphone ones though (I'm not a big fan of Epis. ).

We're in the process of moving at the moment, when we're in our new shop we should be ordering in some Tokai basses, I'll let you know how it goes if you're sill interested in them then.

[stingrayPete1977]

I have been so close to buying a Tokai TB48 but as hardly anywhere has them its hard to go for one on other peoples recommendations alone. Has anyone here got one?