Jamesemt Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Hi guys, while I think I understand the concept of playing in front or behind the beat, what purpose does it serve? Can anyone give me some examples in popular music - rock stuff would be ideal Is it sometimes used to add a sense of urgency going into a chorus for example?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJ Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Sometimes know as pushing and pulling. Some Reggae is an example of the bass sitting behind the beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 It's part of making music groove. It's most obvious when you focus on drummers that are playing behind or ahead of the beat - for instance Stewart Copeland with The Police plays way ahead of the beat, whilst Zigaboo Modeliste from The Meters sits way behind. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Playing ahead of the beat gives the impression of tension and driving the number on. Playing behind the beat gives the impression of a laid back, lazy groove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Listen to James Jamerson's bassline on [i]Heard It Through The Grapevine[/i] - that's the version by Gladys Knight & The Pips - and you'll hear that he keeps the whole thing moving by pushing the beat at every opportunity. It's as if he's thinking "I'd better hurry up and invent funk before Bootsy gets here." Now listen to Aston (Family Man) Barrett's bassline on [i]I Shot The Sherriff[/i] - that's NOT the version by Eric Clapton! - and you'll hear that he gets so far behind the beat at times that he's limbo dancing under toilet doors. It's as if he's thinking "I'm well knackered from fathering 52 children." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='116295' date='Jan 8 2008, 03:58 PM']Now listen to Aston (Family Man) Barrett's bassline on [i]I Shot The Sherriff[/i] - that's NOT the version by Eric Clapton! - and you'll hear that he gets so far behind the beat at times that he's limbo dancing under toilet doors.[/quote] Just had to go and listen to this to double-check and I am now 100% sure that Family Man is playing well AHEAD of the beat on this song. A lot of his basslines sit in this manner, unlike many other reggae bassists, despite Family Man having all but defined the various reggae groove in The Wailers. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 This is a massive issue. Whilst I agree that some reggae is played behind the beat and some metal ahead etc, these are generalisations that could confuse (like the one about a triplet feel in jazz). I spent the first 11 years as a player playing smack ON the beat (lots of metronome practice etc in teh early days) but, one day, playing in a jazz quartet, the drummer, a guy called Lee Goodall (Cardiff), suggested I play ahead of the beat to improve the swing feel. I asked him what he meant, he told me and 'BAM' my insight and playing went up a notch in an instant. Pushing the beat creates energy and forward momentum, whilst playing behind the beat creates a slightly more laid back feel, a sense of relaxation that can be beautiful. BUt playing too far ahead results in unwanted acceleration and too far behind and you slow down. The importance is the relationship between the notes you play and the beat itself. If the beat is constant and the 'distance' you are ahead/behind it is constant, you are in heaven! From a jazz perspective, I would recommend you listen to almost any Paul Chambers solo as Paul plays both ahead and behind the beat within the context of his improvisations, pulling the tension of each piece in both directions as his solos build. The tension and release are palpable. His walking lines tend to be slightly ahead of the beat. His intro to 'So What' on 'Kind Of Blue' (a short unison duet with Bill Evans) is played behind the beat but the famous bass riff that underpins the main theme is ahead of it. His lines on Coltrane's 'Giant Steps' are also ahead of the beat, really pushing the groove. The 3/4 line for 'All Blues' however, is much lazier and holds the groove back beautifully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Indeed, a lot of walking bass on upright, particularly faster tunes tends to be well ahead of the beat. This is partly because a double bass speaks more slowly than a ride cymbal so the note sounds later than it actually is. One of the more fundamental things to a getting a good groove happening in a rock band is for the bassist to sit behind the beat to add width and swagger to the groove. And something else to consider is that when playing drums different parts of the kit may sit in different places relative to the beat. A common example is the snare being furthest behind the beat - listen to Al Jackson Jr on 'Green Onions' - whilst some of Bonzo's amazing grooves have really cool shifts. The vibe on 'Kashmir' is due to the kick and snare sitting back, with non-downbeat kicks behind further behind than those on the downbeats, and the hi-hat pushing ahead of the beat. Of course talking about this is one thing, doing it is another. If you want to get better at playing around the beat you have to learn how to feel these placements. Whatever you do do not try to consciously sit ahead or behind the beat or you will not groove at all! Alex P.S. And don't even attempt to do the D'Angelo/?uestlove/Pino/Saadiq thing unless you want your brain to melt or you're such a bad mofo that you can't help yourself! Go here for elucidation - actually this is so badass I shall embed it: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybassplayer Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Not an expert but would Lizzy's "boys are back in town" be a good example of a band playing in front of the beat as it seems to want to "pull" you in to the next bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 The other problem with playing around the beat is not taking the drummer with you as this usually speeds up or slows down the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='116304' date='Jan 8 2008, 04:13 PM']Just had to go and listen to this to double-check and I am now 100% sure that Family Man is playing well AHEAD of the beat on this song. A lot of his basslines sit in this manner, unlike many other reggae bassists, despite Family Man having all but defined the various reggae groove in The Wailers. Alex[/quote] I guess that's logical - get far enough behind one beat and you'll find yourself just ahead of the next one ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverfoxnik Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='116348' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:03 PM']Alex P.S. And don't even attempt to do the D'Angelo/?uestlove/Pino/Saadiq thing unless you want your brain to melt or you're such a bad mofo that you can't help yourself! Go here for elucidation - actually this is so badass I shall embed it:[/quote] That's fabulous! Thanks for the link.... ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnzy Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 after studying alot of groove dragging and pulling i was amazed by flea from chili peppers! I could of lied from blood sex sugar magic has an amazing feel. each of the players have there own space where they are playing, flea sits right down the middle. its all very loose, but because its a constant idea it creates a groove. listen again to the song and you will dig what i'm trying to say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPJ Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='116348' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:03 PM']P.S. And don't even attempt to do the D'Angelo/?uestlove/Pino/Saadiq thing unless you want your brain to melt or you're such a bad mofo that you can't help yourself! Go here for elucidation - actually this is so badass I shall embed it:[/quote] That's lovely. I dig the drummer just playing snare, kick and floor tom. What else do you need for groove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='116348' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:03 PM']P.S. And don't even attempt to do the D'Angelo/?uestlove/Pino/Saadiq thing unless you want your brain to melt or you're such a bad mofo that you can't help yourself! Go here for elucidation - actually this is so badass I shall embed it:[/quote] OMG - that's a real funky little number you've found there, much better than the album version. Thanks Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Very interesting thread. I never really knew about this from a bass player point of view and never really listened to it until now. I did know about it from a drumming point of view as the guy who produced our album was getting our drumming to push going into either bridges or choruses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='116348' date='Jan 8 2008, 05:03 PM']Indeed, a lot of walking bass on upright, particularly faster tunes tends to be well ahead of the beat. This is partly because a double bass speaks more slowly than a ride cymbal so the note sounds later than it actually is. One of the more fundamental things to a getting a good groove happening in a rock band is for the bassist to sit behind the beat to add width and swagger to the groove. And something else to consider is that when playing drums different parts of the kit may sit in different places relative to the beat. A common example is the snare being furthest behind the beat - listen to Al Jackson Jr on 'Green Onions' - whilst some of Bonzo's amazing grooves have really cool shifts. The vibe on 'Kashmir' is due to the kick and snare sitting back, with non-downbeat kicks behind further behind than those on the downbeats, and the hi-hat pushing ahead of the beat. Of course talking about this is one thing, doing it is another. If you want to get better at playing around the beat you have to learn how to feel these placements. Whatever you do do not try to consciously sit ahead or behind the beat or you will not groove at all! Alex P.S. And don't even attempt to do the D'Angelo/?uestlove/Pino/Saadiq thing unless you want your brain to melt or you're such a bad mofo that you can't help yourself! Go here for elucidation - actually this is so badass I shall embed it: [/quote]Oh yeah. Just strapped on the Precision and lost myself....Good Style. I want a Pino Precision now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 [quote name='steve-soar' post='117457' date='Jan 9 2008, 10:05 PM']Oh yeah. Just strapped on the Precision and lost myself....Good Style. I want a Pino Precision now.[/quote] It wont sound the same. The funk is in the fingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 For the complete novice, far less groovesome is the Coronation Street theme. Was watching it yesterday and noticed the main tune is pulling and pushing all over the shop. Disclaimer - I don't normally watch that pap (my humble opinion) but it was on at my girlfriend's house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='117588' date='Jan 10 2008, 01:12 AM']The funk is in the fingers.[/quote] That's complete bollocks. I've looked loads of times, and it's definitely not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='117755' date='Jan 10 2008, 12:34 PM']That's complete bollocks. I've looked loads of times, and it's definitely not there. [/quote] you need to wash your fingers less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 playing around with the beat is great fun and produces some fabulous feel results, easy to speed up or slow down though so the consistency of the time is paramount Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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