Theory versus Groove

[xgsjx]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016770' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:15 PM']It's OK, mate. I think most people respond to my threads because of the avatar. [/quote]
Shhh, don't let the Mrs hear that!

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='1016789' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:27 PM']Haha. I was just joking. I actually play in a classic rock "originals band" and it's one of the best gigs I have.

I'm just trying to highlight how stupid and outrageous most of the posts on here are.

If it makes you feel any better, I'd also rather have my ears cheesegrated off than listen to the modal jazz groups (including mine) who would happily play to their guitar neck all night long and play all of the notes in the "wrong" key, just to make themselves look clevererererer.

At the end of the day, why don't we all just do what we think is good for us as individuals and stop trying to goad people into arguments about nothing? [/quote]
Ah sorry, it's that things like that have actually been said on here about us illiterate folk, I assumed you meant it, I apologise.

Edited November 8, 2010 by silddx

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='1016815' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:48 PM']Ah sorry, it's that things like that have actually been said on here about us illiterate folk, I assumed you meant it, I apologise.[/quote]

The problem with these types of threads is that they divide bassists!

We should unite as bass players and use this destructive energy to rid the world of guitards...

We'll just have 6 string basses to fill the void. They would do a better job anyway

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='1016779' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:20 PM']What audition ?

Where's there a mention of an audition in your opening statement ?

You're suggesting that playing in time, with 'groove' is more important than the actual notes that are being played. I'm saying that that's crap.

Both are to be treated with equal importance. You need the correct notes, played with 'feel' and in time for the music to work. To play the correct notes you need a knowledge of theory, no matter how basic that knowledge.[/quote]

I think that's the general concensus. But playing the correct notes doesn't need a knowledge of theory. Your ear should tell you if the notes are wrong.

And of course I didn't mention 'audition' in my opening statement. It wasn't needed. So please stop trying to antagonise me.

[phil.i.stein]

appropriate tune..

Edited November 8, 2010 by phil.i.stein

[skej21]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016822' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:53 PM']But playing the correct notes doesn't need a knowledge of theory. Your ear should tell you if the notes are wrong.[/quote]

How does your ear know what the correct note/s?

[lojo]

The answer to the OP question is "groove" is more important the "theory"

But only because I assume by "groove" it means "natural feel" or "talent", where as "theory" can be learned by both the natural and the not so


Air is more important than Water, but only for about around 5 days, then it does not matter either way

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='lojo' post='1016832' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:56 PM']The answer to the OP question is "groove" is more important the "theory"

But only because I assume by "groove" it means "natural feel" or "talent", where as "theory" can be learned by both the natural and the not so


Air is more important than Water, but only for about around 5 days, then it does not matter either way [/quote]

Good post.

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='skej21' post='1016825' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:55 PM']How does your ear know what the correct note/s?[/quote]
if it doesn't... you're in trouble.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1016825' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:55 PM']How does your ear know what the correct note/s?[/quote]

Ears are clever things. And they keep your glasses from falling off.

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016822' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:53 PM']I think that's the general concensus. But playing the correct notes doesn't need a knowledge of theory. Your ear should tell you if the notes are wrong.

And of course I didn't mention 'audition' in my opening statement. It wasn't needed. So please stop trying to antagonise me.[/quote]

No, you should 'know' if the note is right or wrong. Your ear can only tell you after you've played it, when it's too late. "Hey sorry for the bum notes there guy's, but the groove was great wasn't it !"

Having even a basic knowledge of 'notes' should mean that it's right in the first place.

I'm not trying to antagonise you. I'm merely stating what I think, or aren't other people supposed to have opinions in your thread ? Surely that was the whole point in starting a thread like this anyway wasn't it ?

[chaypup]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016770' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:15 PM']It's OK, mate. I think most people respond to my threads because of the avatar. [/quote]

Those sexy avatars really confuse me - in my mind peteacademy is a sexy redhead.

[skej21]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016836' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:59 PM']Ears are clever things. And they keep your glasses from falling off.[/quote]

Nice way of dodging the question

Fact is, you know music theory without knowing it if your ear tells you the right notes to play.

Would you play the right notes just by ear if you got lumbered in a indian classical orchestra? Unlikely, because you won't understand the [b]theory[/b] that is used by using just your ear, because you haven't been exposed to it in the same wasy as you have with western tonal systems.

The same is said of children. If you gave them a small bass/guitar/instrument, they don't play all the "correct" notes and rhythms, they just bash the instrument, because they haven't had enough experience (on ANY level) to understand the theory behind our tonal system (or the way in which you produce sound from the instrument), and then take that theory and apply it appropriately in a musical setting (like you or I can).

Fact is, if you can play "correct" notes by ear, then you know the theory behind it on [b]some[/b] level.

Edited November 8, 2010 by skej21

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='chaypup' post='1016846' date='Nov 8 2010, 08:04 PM']Those sexy avatars really confuse me - in my mind peteacademy is a sexy redhead.
[/quote]

That's me.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='1016842' date='Nov 8 2010, 08:03 PM']No, you should 'know' if the note is right or wrong. Your ear can only tell you after you've played it, when it's too late. "Hey sorry for the bum notes there guy's, but the groove was great wasn't it !"

Having even a basic knowledge of 'notes' should mean that it's right in the first place.

I'm not trying to antagonise you. I'm merely stating what I think, or aren't other people supposed to have opinions in your thread ? Surely that was the whole point in starting a thread like this anyway wasn't it ?[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1016848' date='Nov 8 2010, 08:05 PM']Nice way of dodging the question

Fact is, you know music theory without knowing it if your ear tells you the right notes to play.

Would you play the right notes just by ear if you got lumbered in a indian classical orchestra? Unlikely, because you won't understand the [b]theory[/b] that is used by using just your ear, because you haven't been exposed to it in the same wasy as you have with western tonal systems.

The same is said of children. If you gave them a small bass/guitar/instrument, they don't play all the "correct" notes and rhythms, they just bash the instrument, because they haven't had enough experience (on ANY level) to understand the theory behind our tonal system (or the way in which you produce sound from the instrument), and then take that theory and apply it appropriately in a musical setting (like you or I can).

Fact is, if you can play "correct" notes by ear, then you know the theory behind it on [b]some[/b] level.[/quote]

Another good point. I was actually just trying to lighten up the thread a bit.

[the_skezz]

[quote name='chaypup' post='1016846' date='Nov 8 2010, 08:04 PM']Those sexy avatars really confuse me - in my mind peteacademy is a sexy redhead.
[/quote]

Here is a plea to peteacademy to never tell us otherwise. I prefer it this way.

[leschirons]

[quote name='chaypup' post='1016846' date='Nov 8 2010, 09:04 PM']Those sexy avatars really confuse me - in my mind peteacademy is a sexy redhead.
[/quote]

Isn't he then? sh*t, I bought tickets to see her.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='the_skezz' post='1016872' date='Nov 8 2010, 08:26 PM']Here is a plea to peteacademy to never tell us otherwise. I prefer it this way.[/quote]

Conor, your avatar...would I, wouldn't I?

[stingrayPete1977]

I met Pete exactly a week ago and I think his avatar has been photoshopped a little but its a reasonable representation!

I still love the idea that if you can read you can play every style and tonal system from around the world live in front of thousands of people without making a mistake for the first time the dots are put in front of you. At what point do we class being able to read? Thats not me trying to stir it up I actually would like to know. If I could sit in with a large band and keep a tight root note performance from following the basic dots as it goes along it would sound OK does that count?

[Doddy]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016822' date='Nov 8 2010, 07:53 PM']I think that's the general concensus. But playing the correct notes doesn't need a knowledge of theory. Your ear should tell you if the notes are wrong.[/quote]

True,but it does take away some of the trial and error and can help to prevent those wrong notes.

[quote name='chaypup' post='1016846' date='Nov 8 2010, 08:04 PM']Those sexy avatars really confuse me - in my mind peteacademy is a sexy redhead.
[/quote]

He is


[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1016935' date='Nov 8 2010, 09:22 PM']I still love the idea that if you can read you can play every style and tonal system from around the world live in front of thousands of people without making a mistake for the first time the dots are put in front of you. At what point do we class being able to read? Thats not me trying to stir it up I actually would like to know. If I could sit in with a large band and keep a tight root note performance from following the basic dots as it goes along it would sound OK does that count?[/quote]

Your example would totally class as reading.
Some people class being able to look at four bars and take an hour to study it as being able to read. I think that's stretching it a bit. I could sit
down with a page of French and a dictionary,but I wouldn't say I could read. I'd class that more as being able to work it out.
I'm not talking about sight reading really hard charts either. Even being able to read a simple crotchet pattern pretty quickly means you
can read to a basic level.

[risingson]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1016935' date='Nov 8 2010, 09:22 PM']I met Pete exactly a week ago and I think his avatar has been photoshopped a little but its a reasonable representation!

I still love the idea that if you can read you can play every style and tonal system from around the world live in front of thousands of people without making a mistake for the first time the dots are put in front of you. At what point do we class being able to read? Thats not me trying to stir it up I actually would like to know. If I could sit in with a large band and keep a tight root note performance from following the basic dots as it goes along it would sound OK does that count?[/quote]

I think you'll know already before anyone has given you an answer that realistically you're never going to be stood up with a live rock band reading the dots off some crappy music stand. 1. it's not in fitting with a live band context and 2. the illusion of a degree of improvisation you would otherwise impart on an audience is lost. I don't think anyone is suggesting for one second that being able to read somehow gives you ability to keenly understand every last bit of music and if they are suggesting that then they're deluded. But let's be realistic: how well you read music is down to practice and experience in live, real life situations. There are a million and one musicians out there that get by on not reading music, and the list of credible ones is as big as the day is long. What I'm saying though is that if you want a thorough understanding of your role as a musician (not a bass player, a musician) then it is never a bad idea to have the ability to read and understand chords rhythms and dots. I don't think anyone's going to cry if you don't, it's your choice at the end of the day isn't it.

Edited November 8, 2010 by risingson

[the_skezz]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1016900' date='Nov 8 2010, 08:44 PM']Conor, your avatar...would I, wouldn't I?[/quote]

You know you would

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='the_skezz' post='1016982' date='Nov 8 2010, 10:19 PM']You know you would [/quote]
..he's positively quavering over the prospect of your crotchet.. but still groovin'

[Bilbo]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1016622' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:38 PM']I bet Bilbo can play in 24/13. I must have missed that chapter![/quote]

You write it out, I'll play it.

I think one of the aspects if the argument that has not been mentioned relates to the complexity of the music being performed. Most rock/pop music etc is pretty basic and being able to groove by ear is a credible prospect as the core of the music to be performed is very simple and idiomatically familiar. Some forms are, however, more complex and require a considerable amount of detail the learning of which is problemtaic. A sax player playing a solo over a 12-bar jazz blues may be possible with no knowledge of theory but playing over Lush Life, Chelsea Bridge, Upper Manhattan Medical Group or Giant Steps 'by ear' is a different prospect altogether. Is it credible to expect orchestral musicians to learn Stravinsky's Rite of Spring 'by ear'. Or a trumpet player to learn a full big band so they can play it live without charts (to create that illusion that someone mentioned )?

So, if all you ever play is low brow groove orientated thumpers, as most do, then you can get away with it, especially as a bass player. If you want more (and I certainly do), your going to struggle without some form of knowledge of notation. I find that the number and type of gigs I do militate against the kinds of familiarity you get from playing regularly with just one band. I am rarely playing anything often enough to learn it by rote. The dots help me to play more and more music and to stay fresh and interested.

Another aspect is improvisation. Improvising over simple forms is possible by ear but more complex structures will require more academic knowledge in order to avoid boring yourself and the audience with cliches.