Phil Starr

Why do you want to do this? If it is to get a better sound then it's probably not the best way to go about it. Generally speakers are matched to cabs for best results. the Ampeg probably won't be the cheapest way of buying an empty box. Selling it unmodded and buying what you want may be the quickest way of getting the sound you are looking for. If it is broken and you want to mend it then putting the same speaker in will give the best result in all probability. If you just want a project then I'm sure we can suggest something that will work, you'll be taking a gamble on the sound, it might be better and it might not. What's your budget? Jocelyn Peabody

Welcome, I'm a sound engineer pretending to be a bassist. Takes all types Do you have a budget in mind?

Guitar speakers are designed with short voice coils, because they don't have to move too far and because it makes them louder (don't we know it) Bass involves moving further to move more air and this is what damages the speakers. Whether your HB's will get damaged depends upon their detailed design but this is all volume dependent, the speakers in your clock radio could probably handle 1W of bass. Feel free to play through a guitar cab at low volumes. If you roll off the bass a little then 3dB of roll off will allow you to double the power you can use, then cutting some of the top will make it sound bassier and you might get a decent volume, any bass boost and you'll probably lose the speakers. There are plenty of speakers that you could try in a cab like this which would handle bass better but will all cost £200 and upwards as you surmise. Most will give you an old school style bass hump in the upper bass and little low bass, the cost of putting speakers in a cab which is too small. If you want to build a project then great, we'll help you, but honestly you are probably better off using it as it is, controlling the volume and bass controls. £200 will buy you a decent second hand cab especially if you are prepared to lug something like a 4x12 around.

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1423429873' post='2684714'] I used to have one of these cabs. It's rated at 250w. It was great at low/medium volumes but turn it up loud and it farted like crazy (large crowded venue with insanely loud guitarist). But saying that the next week I brought my Ashdown ABM rated at 400w and it did the same with crazy loud guitarist. The moral of this story is don't get rid of the cab.......get rid of the guitarist. [/quote] If a cab is farting out it's a sure sign that it is exceeding it's excursion limit. The cabs have Eminence drivers in them, even the very basic Eminence Alpha is rated 150W so at 250W for a pair so these probably aren't going to be good at handling high power deep bass. If you like the sound then get a filter or you are likely to get more problems.

That's it really, it just needs an adjustment of attitude. On a big stage you are really much more 'on show' so you need a stage act and everything has to be bigger or you don't engage the audience. That's hard if you've had no training and few of us get to do it very often. I was terrified the first time. On the plus side you can move around much more and interact with other band members. Dad dancing with bass in hand looks slightly less odd than doing it with air guitar, or at least that's what I kid myself On the plus side I normally run the sound and a lot of bassists do, being able to concentrate on just playing and not worrying about the sound is very liberating.

Don't despair quite yet, buzzing can be something simple. Open up the cab and have a good look, sometimes bits of the speaker work loose, check the drivers are screwed down tight and check inside that nothing is touching the speaker as it vibrates, leads sometimes work loose and buzz against the cone. Now examine the speaker cones themselves, a common fault is the dust cover dome in the middle becoming detached and less often the corrugated surround separating, both can be stuck back with copydex, even small tears can be repaired by laminating across them with tissue and copydex. Try pushing the offending speaker cone gently backwards with a large diameter glass or cup, if you hear scratching it is the coil rubbing against the magnet and the speaker is dead. Go to the manufacturer. Using an octaver could reduce the available power by a factor of 4, your 500W speaker could easily become a 125W speaker under certain circumstances due to the extra excursion you are calling for. It's unlikely the deep bass is actually what you want as we hear those frequencies so poorly but the octaver is thickening up the harmonics. If you need the octaver I'd strongly recommend a Thumpinator or similar subsonic filter to protect your speakers, unless you can afford/want to carry four times as many speakers or are happy to periodically replace blown units. 8x10 anyone.

Nothing wrong with the way you are connecting up. First of all I know nothing specific about the two speakers you are usingbut from a purely technical point of view what you are experiencing makes sense. Cheap speakers are often quite loud but the trade off is low Xmax or excursion, they run out of puff with a lot of deep bass going through them and they often lack deep bass. They sound loud because they have a huge hump in frequency response between 1kHz and 3kHz just where our hearing is most sensitive. This has the frequency response of the Eminence Betas which is typical of the sorts of speakers that go in mid priced 4x10's http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Beta_12A.pdf. packing four 10's into a smallish box also gives a large bump in the bottom end around 100Hz making the bass sound louder too. Again the usual characteristic of a mid priced 4x10. Your 12's are probably giving more deep bass and less upper bass than you are used to, a more accurate but perhaps less satisfying sound. This would explain the boominess problems you described, your old speakers didn't boom because there was noreal deep bass to make the room resonate Having the 4 speakers also beams the sound in a narrower band and, depending upon where you stand, you could be hearing a lot of your own sound even though for the audience there is plenty of bass with your 12's. You may well have traded the 'in your face' sound of four lairy 10's for the more accurate frequency response of your 12's. Having a flatter sound from your speakers to work with however means that your new speakers will be much easier to eq, so boost some of the mids and try and dial in the sound you want that way, you may also want to fiddle with the balance between your bridge and neck pup's to get some mid scoop as a different balance will work better with your new speakers. I've just been gigging with some new 1x12's and I've had the boom problem and for the first time ever I've been told I was too loud. I hadn't noticed because the much more controlled studio type sound wasn't shouting the way my old cabs worked. I thought I was playing at the same volume but the drummer said he couldn't hear his own snare drum (that'll get him back for the cymbals) Don't worry if you have to turn the amp up louder so long as it doesn't distort, ironically they often have to work a bit harder with better speakers

Looks like we could have enough people but finding somewhere easy enough for Yeovil through to Newton Abbot could be interesting. I might look for something just off the A30/303 to keep the travelling simple Using a range of amps and having some quality commercial cabs to compare would be interesting too. My preference is for a midweek eve to keep the weekends free for gigging, is that good for most of you? Now to find a venue.

[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1423167941' post='2681785'] Hey Phil, I can bring the ampeg head to test the cab would be great if you could sort this matey! [/quote] Hi Steve, This looks like a runner now. We've been playing a few gigs down your way recently, mostly private functions in the Rec but you'd be welcome if you get a gap in your own gigs. Hope it's going well with you. Phil

Your speaker cab won't hum by itself, it is coming in from the amp, though the amp may in turn be amplifying something coming in from the bass. There are really three most likely sources of hum the most common is through the long stretches of wire (mainly your leads and the wire in the pup's) before you reach the amp picking up radiation, radio waves usually but direct pickup of magnetic fields is also possible. The second possible source is in earth loops. The third is introduces via your power supply in the amp (or anything else you have connected) Do you use fx, unplug them all and see if the problem clears, even the tuner! Do you get hum with nothing plugged in to the amp or is it only when the guitar is plugged in? Leave the amp on for a while with nothing plugged in and the gain high whilst you get on with something else If it doesn't hum the amp isn't likely to be the problem You've said you've tried other leads, basses and amps and sometimes it goes. I've found when people bring me this problem that they haven't been very systematic (it's usually under panic conditions at a gig). What other gear is near your amp? I've had the transformer in one amp radiating so much hum it is picked up in the next one. Do you have cooling fans in any amp that come on and go off when it is cool, Basically you need to be able to create the hum at will to know what is causing it. Coincidentally my mobile has just made my computer speakers buzz, another source of intermittent strange noises. good luck, let me know what you find.

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1423063555' post='2680197'] I'm not sure why I keep seeing the same discussion on 10, 12 or 15". Is it placebo or is it science? What really matters is whether you're happy with the sound. I appreciate you have limited access to decent music shops but please do yourself a favour and actually go and try the kit out before you decide. I can't honestly say that I hear much difference between equivalent speakers, same manufacturer of different sizes [/quote] This is the best advice ever. Don't obsess about the diameter of the speaker, or brand or the dodgy published specs, for just about everybody it is best to just listen to the kit and if it sounds good to you it is good. However as one of those people with a bit of science it is frustrating that people keep repeating the same old folklore, including some of those who pose as experts. The science is really very simple and the headline is that size matters, but not that much. Much like gender specific parts of the human body. If you want an analogy it is probably better to think in terms of cars and vans. Does the size of the engine matter, Yes, it does. If you want something to go faster you put in a bigger engine. Does that mean a London Bus can go faster than a Formula 1 car? No it doesn't. Do all 1.5litre engines behave the same way? Again obviously not. Engine designers have a lot of variables like compression ratios, fuel systems and so on that they can tweak to produce engines that will do different jobs. Speaker designers look at coil designs, magnet systems, suspensions and the like to do different jobs too. You wouldn't choose a vehicle solely on the basis of engine size unless you want to transport your bands gear in a Porche solely because it has a bigger engine than the Transit van you looked at first. Taking the car analogy further, manufacturers do it for the money. You could make cars in an infinite variety of cars but there are a preponderance of just a few types, the stylish mini, the sensible economical hatchback, the Chelsea tractor and so on. Most cars are just 'me too' variations on a successful theme. So most speaker manufacturers will make you a 2x10, and to match there rivals they will make them a similar size and then put in similar drivers so they can match their rivals costs. Guess what, they sound pretty similar too. Hopefully this helps people understand a little. Speaker size does matter, just like engine size, but all 10" speakers aren't the same any more than all 1.5l engines produce the same power and torque. Beware of anyone giving you an absolute statement, all other things being equal a 15 will be louder than a 10, but there are 'quiet' 15's and loud 10's. Even the statement about dispersion is wrong, not all 15's or any other size speaker have the same dispersion as they don't all act as rigid pistons. All things being equal bigger speakers will be louder, bassier, heavier, have less treble and worse dispersion but all things won't be equal so you have to try them. If you think 15's have a 'sound' then you are only half right. A lot of 15's sound fairly similar but there are plenty of exceptions. Mostly they are more expensive.

The limiting factor with what you have is the power available. The PV 15's will easily handle the kick, especially if the 15's have the Black Widow drivers but you will run out of power before the speakers run out of excursion. You could fiddle around with the eq, filter off the power hungry low bass from the kick and boost the 80-150Hz range to give a good thump, then roll off the top end to lose a bit of the slap. The other thing to look at is the mic placement, move it around and you'll be surprised how the sound changes, just shoving it anywhere in front of the kick isn't good enough really if you want a decent tone. Old PV speakers aren't particularly good for vocals either. They are fantastically reliable, esp for the money but the horn drivers just don't cut it for vocals IMO. I'd look to change up the whole system at some point rather than spending on something which does a job but ultimately needs upgrading completely if you want a better sound. Homework for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyQhWj2xuB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOHduVBqGeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crp0yx24io4

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1422875903' post='2677715'] I'll come along.... if I'm not gigging which would be unlikely...! [/quote] That'd be good, I'll see who might make it then look for a pub central to as many people as possible.

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1422873082' post='2677664'] I would assume it would be a lot harder getting people on a weekend evening as it restricts the range of the people who can attend, but if you want to organise something, then put out a prospective day and location and see who can attend. I certainly couldn't do exeter on a weekday, but maybe there are a few people down that area. [/quote] Whereabouts in Somerset are you? I'd have thought quite near here You don't get more bottom end than Chard

HELP I'm desperate to organise a meet up to try out the Basschat 1x12 speakers I've designed. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/227904-1x12-cab-design-diary/"]http://basschat.co.u...b-design-diary/[/url] This could be part of the meet up you are talking about or an extra that you'd all be welcome to. I live halfway between Chard and Axminster but practice with my band in Exeter and I'd be happy to do the organisation. Effectively you'd be testing out the beta version of the cabs for me before I build the final version and release the designs, which will be provided free of charge to everyone via Basschat. I'd bring along some basses (American Deluxe P and highway one J) and an amp but would love any other amps/basses to test the speakers with. Ideally I'd want to get on and organise this quickly so the designs can go out, and midweek would be great as one of the delays has been busy weekends gigging but I'm pretty flexible. TBH if I thought I'd get half a dozen people I'd go ahead.

Fair Question. The position I'm in is that I've been successfully gigging the prototypes for several months but so far have failed to get anyone else to try the speakers. I'd prefer to give other bassists the chance to try them out and comment before I release the design, in case they need a bit of tweaking. I'm down on the Somerset/Devon/Dorset border and ideally I'd like to set up an evening in a local pub, set up and let people come along and have a try. I'd even provide the basses! (American Deluxe P, Highway One J, Japanese T'Bird) If anyone is up for that let me know.

Open Mics are a bit Marmite (you either love em or hate em Blue) I love the idea of musicians getting together just to play music and everyone doing a 'turn', but i'm just an old hippie really. If I'm on holiday in the UK I'll look out for them as an excuse to have a fun evening in the pub chatting with local musicians. We even got invited to appear on the local radio station last year after playing at a pub in Penzance The music standard is so variable, but I love that. I really enjoy watching people progress from their first song in public through to an accomplished set a couple of years later and my experience is that musicians are a pretty supportive bunch. Round here in the Dorset/Somerset area a number of open mics are run under the banner of Howl Open Mics. Pretty much acoustic and I was about the first to take a bass along I think. A lot more since then though. We used it to get a set together, learn three songs at rehearsal then down to the pub to try them out on an audience. Elijah the host is pretty fair in trying to get everyone who wants up on stage, there's a bunch of regulars who he'll manage to fill the gaps and/or lift the show but there's priority to get new people on and lots of support for nervous performers. Good musicians will often accompany others but it's generally more about people doing their songs than a jam session. We got gigs out of it and I played a couple more with a band formed from people I met at the open mics. I get along to fewer now because of band rehearsals and gigs but it's great to get started or to get back into music after a break and I miss the camaraderie a bit. Open mics vary from a house band doing their practice in public with a couple of mates singing a song or two through an open jam session to a series of acoustic guitarist/singers doing corny covers. You just have to go along and take pot luck but I'm a fan, and any chance to play, well I'm still keen.

Nothing much original to add in the way of songs but I think an encore needs to bring a definite ending. If you've been rocking and the audience have all been up dancing then more of the same simply brings them asking for.... more of the same, so you have the same problem until you run out of songs or you leave them still asking for more, and ultimately without their proper climax (ooh er ). Play them a big sing along anthem and they seem to go home happy. With my last band With Or Without you did the trick and the added bonus is that you can repeat the chorus until they can sing no more. Hit the Road Jack works for us in the current band again because it stands out as different from everything that went before. My Indy/Pop band finished with All Along the Watchtower with the guitarist shredding until they'd had enough, again it worked because it was a change of pace/genre. In my disco days we ended with My Old Man's a Dustman, which really was a little different, but it worked strangely.

Firstly have a careful look at the drivers, the most common fault is the adhesive breaking down, look to see if the dust cap (the dome in the middle of the speaker) is coming away or the cone is separating from the corrugated surround. These can be stuck back down with Copydex a latex based adhesive. Even small tears in the cone can be repaired by laminating small pieces of tissue over the tear with copydex. The other problem may be distortion in the coil caused by heat or the hammering of the cone on the back of the magnet, this will be obvious if you gently push the cone backwards as you will hear it/feel it rubbing against the inside of the magnet. Push it evenly from all sides as pushing from one side will make it rub anyway. Pushing with a large mug or glass can work well but be gentle, 2mm should be enough to show any problem. This can't be repaired. If you want to keep the cab as it is then only the original drivers will give the same sound, you could try contacting Fender . If you want to keep the cab but with a different sound then you could try substitute speakers and plenty of people here will guide you through that process. Most bass cabs are tuned to roughly 40-50Hz and the T/S parameters of most drivers are similar enough for a wide range of speakers to work in most cabs. Getting the speaker matched to the cab shouldn't be too much of a problem so long as someone does the calculations/modelling however the rest of the frequency range won't be the same so the speaker will sound different, maybe better or worse. If you want to pursue this then we need to know the exact dimensions of the port and the internal dimensions of the cab.

I don't think the little mixer will be the problem. Those speakers at that price are likely to be very limited. I note that they are rated at 113dB peak, if you are playing with a drummer then you really need to achieve 120dB to give your vocals any headroom at all. Given that it costs me £50 to build a box it's likely to have very poor speakers in. There's no horn and my hi fi speakers go as loud as these. They'll just be loud enough to play acoustically but not with a band. They aren't likely to sound too good either. I've the full range of kit and sometimes when we play smaller venues I limit myself to using the amp from a Yamaha Stagepas 300, a very simple 4channel mixer amp with only bass,treble and volume on each channel, but I put this through some proper PA speakers. (Yamaha S112V's) this raises the output from 113dB to 120dB meaning the amp has plenty of headroom and isn't constantly distorting. If you want to keep to that sort of budget you might want to go for the amp but look for some used PA speakers. There are some bargains out there but avoid Peavey PA speakers, dead reliable but the horn drivers they use are awful. No vocal clarity at all. Their amps are great.

Lemonrock started in the St Albans area and then joined up with a project in the southwest, it's expanding gradually and if you go on the site statistics there's a map of where the members are http://www.lemonrock.com/statistics.php does look like a bit of a hole in the Midlands at the moment. If it does get established in your area it's a great resource, we get most of our work from it with no need to cold call venues and they email 500+ local music fans each time we gig.

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1421461247' post='2661663'] Although this is focussed on hi-fi systems, the principle is the same: [url="http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction"]http://www.audioholi...fact-or-fiction[/url] [/quote] Thanks, that's an interesting article. Pretty much confirming what most of us are saying, there will be changes but whether they will be audible in any practical situation is debatable, and you don't need much running in time to get those changes.

Stick some ads in the local guitar shops and chat with the manager who will know most of your local guitarists. Lemonrock.com is a great place to look as it is a site where gigging pub bands tout there wares, so the ratio of gigging musicians to bedroom players and dreamers is better http://www.lemonrock.com/ads.php. If you have your own PA etc then it's worth mentioning, semi pro musicians will be looking for hassle free berths rather than multiple problems. If your old players can keep playing for a while that helps as gigging bands will find it easier to recruit than ones who have had a break from gigging. A few weeks won't matter but months off makes you almost a start up band. My advice is to really stick out for the right person, the band will ultimately change with new members but so many guitarists aren't too flexible and seem to want to play a lot of classic rock. They take on a band out of desperation to keep gigging but then can't resist the pull of their own needs and interests. Make sure they are fully signed up to your classic punk. If they don't already know a big chunk of your set then just chat and find out why? Keep the auditions business like, give them a list of four or five songs which will test a range of skills and give them your set list and let them choose a couple too. If they haven't bothered to learn the ones you sent then they aren't taking it seriously. Good luck

There's an old thread about this where one of the basschatters (Stevie) did some measurements to show that the effects of running in a speaker are negligible. In any case just using the speaker will run it in so it's not something you can avoid and not probably something to worry about. FWIW it's easy to see how people are fooled into thinking they hear changes that aren't there. Our brains are much more sophisticated sound processors than any DSP. The usual reason given for 'running in' is to soften the suspension but I suspect changes to the cone are more significant as these will affect the higher frequencies to which we are more sensitive. We know that the cross linking bonds in wood fibre cones change with time and are affected by temperature and particularly humidity and it may be this rather than the suspensions that are causing the sound to change. It's interesting and i have two identical speakers one of which I'm using and one keeping for some comparative measurements to see if I can detect any changes over time but I'm a white coated nerd, the average bassist probably shouldn't worry about it.

Hair driers work but heat guns work better, though they also can melt cables! touching up with a soldering iron works a treat.