warwickhunt

Just for a bit of fun I decided to do a little experiment and record a set of cabs to see if simply listening to them without seeing them, there was any discernible characteristics/differences. I reiterate it was not scientific but I tried to keep some constants; I played into a looper, the mic and cab was placed in exactly the same place, amp settings were not changed (*) etc. However there was one fly in the ointment in that one of the cabs was 4 ohm while the others 8 ohm. It was immediately obvious when I hooked up the 4 ohm 2x12 cab it was significantly louder and put the recording in the red; (*) as a result I lowered the input gain on the amp to best match an average of the other cabs. There is one rogue recording. I took the same signal from my amp via the pre out and fed that to my QSC K10 monitor (1x10 active cab), again I matched as best I could the approximate gain output (50% of travel on the output... not that it matters). Sandberg with Aguilar JJ pups (passive) Thunderfunk 550B Aguilar DB112 Genz Benz NeoX 212 TC RS 210 TKS 115 QSC K10 The cab was located 1m from the nearest rear wall. Mic was 2m from the front of the cab. All cabs had a tweeter which was set at 50% (the QSC can't be adjusted). I learned a lot doing this and I might do it again with a bit more detail. C5 C5.mp3 C4 C4.mp3 C3 C3.mp3 C2 C2.mp3 C1 C1.mp3 Have a listen, make observations and ask questions. I'll reveal which is which in a couple of days (the audio is labelled C1 - C5 but not in the same order as listed ). C5.mp3 C4.mp3 C3.mp3 C2.mp3 C1.mp3

Room emptied of all cabs. Tape marks on the floor for cab and mic position (cab 1m from rear wall / mic 2m from cab + 2m from rear wall)... nearly ready! Originally I was setting this up for fun to see if, in a real life setting (amp/cab in front of you), what differences might you expect and then actually hear if you were faced with a range of cabs of varying driver diameter. This is skewed/compounded by the fact that every cab has a different sensitivity and in some cases an ohmage difference BUT I suppose that is part of the real world nature of my idea. In truth it means that multiple drivers, sensitivity of drivers and the ohmage of the cab will most certainly skew any 'direct' comparison. In real life if your 112 8 ohm cab was quieter than your 210 4 ohm cab, you'd just turn up a bit wouldn't you? As per the poll result at the top I'll use single 8 ohm cabs (other than the GB212 which is 4 ohms). What I think I'll do is 1st pass I'll leave all volumes/settings the same and record as is (recording levels set to an approximation of the cab that I think is the average of all the cabs). Then I can do a 2nd pass and use the recording indicators/meters to try and get cab(s) to a matched level of input. I do need to consider if I turn up the amp to get the meters to match or leave the amp setting and increase the gain on the recording. I'll wait till I actually attempt this to see if I need to significantly alter the output gain on the amp, if I do I'll be sure to take notes and mention this. It'll be a case of suck it and see but I don't want to be skewing things to advantage one cab over another... we'll see. Just as an aside I'm going to take a line out from the amp (Thunderfunk 550) and put it through my QSC K10 monitor cab. I'll not be able to maintain equality of volume due to the monitor having the power amp. However, using the meters in the recording software, I'll try and get it close. I'm doing this just out of interest/curiosity (the reason for the whole thing I suppose) to see if my own perception is skewed by knowing it is a monitor and not a bass specific cab. I don't think I'm going to immediately label each sample, I'll make it a blind test and then do a reveal. PLEASE this is just me with a bit of time (and cabs) on my hands, having a bit of fun and maybe it'll be of interest to a few, don't crucify me because it isn't remotely scientific; at least I'm trying to make it reasonably practicable and relevant. I reserve the right to scrap this if it turns out to be a right chew on! LOL

The P2's touchscreen is very handy but how often would you not have your phone with you regardless of if you had the P1 or 2? P1 has the tuner so that isn't a deal breaker. I think for a little bluetooth music practice tool and emergency interface for live, the Mooer is all I need and replaces my old Korg Pandora.

Hence I went for the P1; half the price and it has bass specific pre sets.

That's him taking the pic iirc.

Not heard anything fresh. If he is still performing with The Carpenters Experience, they are on in my home town in a couple of weeks.

Hmmmm... PA upgrade springs to mind but again I've no idea of the band/PA situation. We don't use a sub(s) or anything, just decent quality RCF 15" full range cabs (not their top of the range) and I can put my bass through (no backline), along with the kick, snare, 2 guitars (no backline) and 2-3 vocals.

I'm not up on the ins/outs of the band and PA set up but one immediate thought for me is that if you go using IEM to hear the rest of the band clearer/better, then you will be isolating yourself more from your amp/cab on stage... unless you are taking a DI out to the PA just to feed the aux send / IEM (not FOH)? How do the rest of the band hear you at present; is it from your backline?

I've been in and out of where you are at for the last 12-18 months. If you want to use monitor / FRFR I'd suggest finding a unit that has 2 inputs/channels which are useable together. Take a line from whatever your bass source is and feed one channel, take a line from the PA (ideally your own aux if it is a digital desk, that you can mix as you want) and feed the other input. You then have a quick easy manipulation of your bass independent of the PA feed (take your bass out of the PA feed to your monitor as it'll just cloud things). One final tip/thought - can you mount this monitor/FRFR at ear level on a speaker stand off to the side? It'll eliminate too much bass sub frequencies from floor coupling (incorrect terminology but you might know what I mean) and get the sound at your ear/head height, you'll not need to turn it up as loud.

More learned types will be along with details but on a basic level you can't generalise and say 10/12/15 needs 'X' dimensions. You start with what are the specs of your speaker not just the diameter, be aware not all manufacturers supply all the spec. You take this spec and put it into an app (I dabbled with it and it's not 'that' hard... I'm over 60), which you then tweak to achieve what you want and the dimensions are given. There are lots of ifs and buts but if you know the manufacturer and speaker model number you can get a good idea of the volume required... you can decide how you achieve that volume with your height/width/depth. Of course you could just measure the dimensions of another cab and get a rough idea but as others will explain you could hit on but it might be pot luck how good it sounds (ports, vents, bracing, material density + thickness etc etc).

My initial thoughts were tonal differences between cabs/drivers as opposed to volume differences between 4 / 8 ohms.

I have Ableton Live II Lite on my laptop. I'm going to try and get this set up this week, so I'll familiarise myself with the software and see if I can find a function to 'normalize'.

We do this but you have to have trust that someone is going to log into their Aux feed and adjust levels... as opposed to someone else's feed or worst still, the FOH. It has happened!

I suppose many of these revolve around learning the major and relative minor scale(s), quickly identifying what key a song is in and then knowing the various permutations of the I / IV / V / VI (minor) progression (often used in pop/rock/blues). I'm not saying this is the be and end all but if you are familiar with enough songs (learn as many as you can, even if you don't need to learn them), then you can easier identify songs with shared progressions. There are many songs that don't fit with a 'regular' progression / note choice but that frees up your brain to work out those. I personally don't look for bass tab for songs as imho you get reliant on just learning that song and not the general way a song is constructed. What I will do is Google the overall chord structure of songs I'm not familiar with and I can generally figure out what the bass is 'likely' to do to link together the chords... but as mentioned earlier you do have to be aware of a couple of basic scales and be aware that in certain instances things like 7ths may be flattened. All of this is a very brief summary of me trying to distil what it is I do, lots comes from playing music and trying to create your own music; you tend to learn what works together if you have to write your own.

If you work full time, have kids, unfamiliar with songs or a long time since you were in the routine then 10 songs can be tough and likely not going to do anyone any favours. I'm probably the other end of the spectrum and I do play a lot of gigs/songs; inc' dep gigs (rock covers) with 24 hrs notice to learn 20-24 songs BUT I have a huge repertoire gained over 40+ years of gigging and I have cheats/routines/knowledge that helps me 'learn' stuff. Saying that if they are songs you're just not familiar with it is tough to do without cheat-sheets. Does everyone else in the band have the time and inclination to learn 10... or is it you that'll bust a gut and others won't have bothered (got that particular T shirt)?

Yeah the P1 has bass specific amps and cabs; seems quite an oversight to remove from the upgrade P2.

"I play jazz chord melodies" "I am concerned with sweetness of tone/recording more so than loudness" Based on those 2 statements alone I'd say you could use the term 'overkill'! We have no idea of your band set up or situation; unless you are playing in a loud band with reasonable sized rooms and you don't need the PA to carry your sound, it'd be fine but for 90% of the time it'll be too much... based on info provided.

You assume I have a means of measuring voltage... I'm playing a bass into an amp.

I sent 8 basses and an amp to Will for commission sales and he has sold 7 of the 9 within 6-7 weeks. Good comms and prompt payment to my bank, so I have no complaints!

What sort of file sizes will I end up with? I have to be aware of where I post/host them for accessibility.

Cheers for all of the thoughts, feedback and solid scientific knowledge. I am well aware that if you were going to draw conclusions from this bit of fun it would be absolutely pointless! It is not a case of me trying to prove/disprove anything but it is interesting (if that is the right word) when you have a set of cabs and you spend timing swapping and changing just one variable (the cab) and in some cases you can see how conceptions/misconceptions can be created. This idea isn't new but when I had a bass playing friend around we were actually blind testing (NOT 'testing') our Kemper profiles (and making profiles) through various devices and in the process the cabs became as much a focus as the profiles. Nothing deadly serious, just interesting to both of us. I think in the short term (possibly next week), I'm going to clear my music room (5m x 5m) a bit and do a fun/casual recording of the 4 cabs BUT I think I'll do it as 2/4 separate challenges (not going to call it a 'test', as it isn't); I'll do it with 8 ohm singles + the GB 4 ohm cab @ 2m but also @ 4" (where you might mic a cab from for live work) but I'll also do the other option as 4 ohm loads with the TKS 8 ohm cab (at the same distances). It makes sense if I have everything in situ I may as well do multiple variables before I pack it away. That way if there is a variable induced by me it'll be the same on all (i.e. recording level, positioning etc). Sound source - Oooooh I'm with @Phil Starr that an amp might flatter a particular cab, which might be my choice of cab/amp BUT it might not be everyone's ideal partnership. However, I have the option to use my Thunderfunk (550w solid state), EBS HD350 (250-350w solid state), Tech Soundsystem Blackcat (1000w valve preamp [tonestack EQ] C;donkey D power) or my Fishman Plat Pro preamp pedal which is quite neutral sounding into the power stage of one of the above amps. I do have other preamps (Tech 21 Sansamp, Tonebone Bassbone, BBE Acoustimax) but I think they are more coloured. Any amp setting would have to be on neutral, which is 12:00 for everything except the Blackcat (I'll need to research Tonestack again), with no preshape engaged (EBS EQ can be bypassed which I need to investigate what that means). I'll use a bass which most folk will be familiar with as opposed to something like a Bolin or obscure Warwick; possibly my Sandberg P bass in passive mode or the Sandberg Jazz (passive Aguilar pups). Played into a Looper to ensure consistency and using my Rode Condenser mic set at the same relative position in front of each driver. All cabs have a tweeter but I 'think' for the close mic, I'll position it away from any horn or driver with horn included (the top driver on the TC cab); for the 2m recording I'll position the mic at the centre of the actual cab as opposed to driver or tweeter. Lots of variables and still some things I've got to think through including the actual recording process et al. Off to do something constructive... these dishes won't do themselves!

LOL That has been going through my head all night... maybe in April I'll try this scenario. You are also correct I'm not talking of measuring or analysing; my initial thought was 'How different will each cab *combination of cabs* sound if close mic recorded?' I know they sound quite different sat in front of them but if they were recorded and no clue given, could another bassist readily identify a 10/12/15" driver? BTW I'm confident the answer is NO, however a lot of folk will declare they want X, Y or Z size driver to get more top/mid/bottom.

Thinking it through that would be the most scientific way Bill but most cabs are used in rooms so maybe that isn't an issue for a bit of 'fun' so long as I follow your other guidance (no other cabs, same position).

Oooof that throws up some questions. Outdoors OK. Mic 2m - 10m from a cab... am I going to need to crank the gain to silly levels to get a good signal? Mic 45 degrees off axis @ 2 - 10m AND outdoors - do I leave the gains where they are or do I try to match to on axis levels? Biggest issue though is that I'm imagining that I'd need to run my amp at a very rough approximation of what I guess 100w is... I've no way of measuring if my amp (likely my Thunderfunk 550) was outputting 100w at any given setting on the input or output gains.

Pleased the Lekato has worked out. As I said earlier, for the money it has to be worth a try. re. distance from router. I assume your Aux out that you feed is XLR; can you not simply get an XLR to minijack lead and site it away from the router? I actually run an XLR across to my side of the stage so that the Lekato is nearer to me.