andruca

I hate fuzz, all of it, either on bass or guitar. So I couldn't tell what's wrong with a Muff, other than... being a fuzz.

I have an MS-60B. Sadly, even tho' I make a living out of software consulting and development, I'm ignorant about most of what you're talking about. I'm fluent with all Zoom functionality and custom firmware, just have rarely used librarian software with my Zoom gear (either Zoom's own or 3rd party). Still I think with precise instructions I can test whatever you need, for sure. Just frop me a line, no problem, real happy to contribute.

According to this YT vid it's just the latest firmware and a collection of 50 patches built around the different synth models (calling it "reprogram" or "software update from scratch" is a little pretentious). I'm deep into the custom firmware rabbit hole for this generation and no, they haven't created any new effects, it's just a collection of patches you can perfectly do on your own if you know what you want and understand what each effect/parameter does.

With just one Zoom device you won't be able to independently process the "guitar" part (needs different EQ, heavier distortion, etc.), no parallel processing, even with the latest B6 model. But you can do that with 2 of them, and I've done just that with previous gen cheap ones (you can get a B1on/G1on used for 30€ or less these days). The cheapest I could get away with was <100€ (more like 70-80€ if you toroughly scan the used market) with any 2 of Zoom's MS-60B/50G/70CDR/B1on/Xon/G1on/Xon (firmware can be customized to have guitar FX on the bass model and viceversa) and any cheap ABY pedal (got mine for 20€ new). Explained in the video description. You can hear bass first, then guitar (made stereo with added stereo chorus), then both. Probably not suitable for a 2 piece like RB but for sure gets the job done, i.e., in a 3 piece, to cover some space when the guitar guys does a solo. I've set it up so I can do just octave or octave+harmony (usually a 5th up). I'd usually use the one with the most FX slot capacity for the guitar branch, as it usually needs more processing than my usual crunchy bass tone (usually just BassDRV + 160Comp). EDIT: when using only 1 amp I'd use an easy passive Y/attenuator I've made with a box I already had, 3 jacks and a pot. One input is wired directly to the output (the least loud), one goes thru' the pot (the loudest). Guitar goes mono when doing so. Sorta' ghetto, but does what's needed.

It's too in your face for my taste. And I appreciate it being the argument of many who, in the end, give up on them (without sufficient band experience). You can roughly "tame" a Stingray, but if you want a "polite"/"delicate" tone out of them that's harder to achieve. OTOH it's a different instrument on flatwounds, I have 2 indeed, one is permanently on flats and happens to be "polite" enough for solo recreational playing.

Agree. Yet, a P is a bass you can play on your own and sounds good, despite the "primitive" nature of its tone (there goes another funny adjective). According to statistics I'm making up just right now, 99% of people who ditch a Stingray do so in frustration after playing it too much on their own. There lies the usual "either love it or hate it" narrative around Stingrays. Should instead be more like "you either love it in a band setting or only play it home on your own and end up hating it".

I've owned several of those 3 "paradigms" and what I hear matches my experience. Jazz Bass? More detailed and "refined". Stingray? In your face yet the most mix friendly (pretty "rustic" when playing on your own really, not that pleasant, but shines in any band mix). BB? Scooped in comparison (and a bit nasal in the OP video). Nice vid, nice playing, nice tones. 👍

Wow man, thanks for taking the time. I do IT for a living and am fluent in Python so if you need a helping hand just let me know. OTOH I'm totally ignorant as to how Windows binary resources (such as Zoom's firmware installers) work. I'm giving this resource hacker a try, just in case it helps me understand it.

Even tho' LTFs are my flat of choice for fretless, I bought this some months ago to try these Magma Ultra Flats (.040"-.120") strings in one of my SR5s. Overall soft and warm, probably a bit brighter than my beloved LTFs. https://www.magmastrings.com/1_1_2_ultra_flat_process_stainless_steel_round_wound.html# You can hear them here...

I usually go drop D on my Jazz with a .045"-.105" gauge set and beat the crap out of it. I know drive and compression maek it easier, but still .I'd confidently use a .050"-.110" set for drop C# tunning.

Can't find anything in search engines. Still, "my" custom firmware (based on version 2.1) is right now working OK in my MS-60B. It consists of stock stuff excluding... Ba Detune MarkB Ambience Bomber ModDelay PhasedDly Spring63 St Bs GEQ TapeEcho3 Z-Organ with these effects added from the MS-50G (guitar) model (mostly guitar amps)... BG CRUNCH DZ DRIVE BGN DRIVE Z MP1 MS CRUNCH VX COMBO FD COMBO HW STACK MATCH 30 TANGERINE VX JMI Z Dream RedCrunch Aco.Sim

Mine is dead quiet too. In fact, I went back to my MS-60B after ditching a B1XFour last year. The MS-60B was noticeably less noisy (also sounded fuller, B3n/B1Four/XFour sound BOXY in comparison). I only use ZNR past a certain amount of drive (the nature of the beast, I guess, even my SansAmp RBI gets noisy as I push the drive knob). Not necessary for my "clean" tone (which is not as clean really). Don't fear the ZNR if you're going high gain, it's a great noise gate indeed. I use it at the end of the chain and set detection to GTRIN. Again, my sound is sort of "binary", either I sound full blast or am not playing, so my threshold can be set pretty high.

Not into effects really since mid 2000s. I own a B3, an MS-60B and a G1Xon (with custom firmware with all bass relevant stuff from the B1Xon). All three sound identical to me. I mostly go BassDrive (SansAmp emulation) -> 160comp (dbx160 emulation) in a variety of gains... ... and occasionally add a BaSqueak (blendable RAT emulation) plus some BassPEQ to get a more DarkGlass tone...

AFAIK 2.1 is the current version for the MS-60B. For the B1on model it's version 1.3.

Have you tried turning it on in firmware update mode? You'd have to hold both the up & down navigation keys with the B1on turned off, THEN connect the USB from the PC to turn it on. It should display some "Ready for firmware update" wait message (or similar, don't remember it textually). If you can get there you can re-flash the firmware you were trying to install (or the stock Zoom version). Now, if it turned off during the update it might be that the USB port you're using doesnt't have enough power to feed the B1on, you could try a different USB port/bus (check your PC's specs) or maybe use an externally powered USB hub.

One more vote for multi-FX. Start Zoom if you want it cheap (still most bang for the buck IME). I've been a SansAmp guy since forever, mostly an RBI, nowadays in my studio just for recording really. I've had Zoom's small multi-FX since about 2000 (BFX-708, 708II, B2.1u, then MS-60B, which now coexists with a G1Xon, B3 and G3). The last 2 generations sound AMAZING. I've also dabbed into the newest generation (B3n, B1four/Xfour), indeed I owned a B1X Four for some time and had plenty of oportunity to A/B it with the MS-60B, and I sticked with the previous gen. because the four (and some B3ns I had also tried, just not A/Bed) sounds boxier and a little noisy in comparison. Really, if I'm 100% result driven about this I'll never spend much more than Zoom range. I've used POD, GT-6B (noisy!, also Boss' "modules" paradigm is so obsolete) and many other more expensive gadgets. IME Zoom kills them all. Only other thing I'd be interested in these days is Mod Devices' Dwarf, just because I like open-source stuff and the infinite interconnectivity (still I've yet to hear decent bass demos of it -modern sansampey/darkglassey stuff-). Just as an example, I've built a Guma Drive pedal (B3K clone, my bro' did all of the soldering in fact), which I love, but in all honesty my honeymoon with it lasted for about 2 weeks, until I took about 1 hour to replicate such "darkglassey" tone in my G1Xon (firmware customized with all bass relevant stuff from the B1Xon). So, other than the fact that browsing thru' menus and fiddling with parameters is not for everyone, I see no other argument to look elsewhere. TONE IS DEFINITELY THERE and functionality is HUGE, you just have to take your time tweaking. IME they blow any preamp/comp/EQ pedal out of the water for a tiny fraction of the cost (you can have a used B1on/Xon -can chain 5 FX- for like 30€ 'round here). No brainer.

Regarding tone, I've played a couple Stingray5s since forever as my main basses (one with flats, one with rounds nowadays). OTOH, I hardly ever use them home, not that nice for playing on your own really (usually too "in your face"). Its virtues tend to shine more in a band mix environment. Doesn't ever get lost/buried, and it's probably one of the easiest bass tones to post-produce because of that. It's just not a good bedroom bass by any means, I mostly use a FSO or my Star Bass for that.

I've owned 2 Stingray5s since forever (old ceramic 3 coil pickup) and a couple years ago I gave a used Ray35 I found a try. The asking price for those used around here is ~600€. I'd never get a new one when 1100€ can get you a 2nd. hand USA EBMM. If I were to do it today I would go SUB all the way (and swap the preamp -lack of headroom is their only endemic problem-). My Ray35 (black, mahogany according to specs) was HEAVY, heavier than any of my USA Rays. I'd only recommend the "high end" SBMMs if you found them cheap used. Only thing calling my attention these days from SBMM are SUBs (the HH 5er). I know I could put a 20€ Artec preamp (only real problem) on any SUB and have a bass that isn't that far below in VALUE from a "high end" SBMM as the price difference would suggest.

That's because pre-2008 Stingray5s came with the old rectangular cover. I think the rectangular pickup was alnico in the early years, then it was ceramic (from 1993 on IIRC) 'til they started offering the Sterling5. Since then Stingrays, either 4 or 5 string are alnico and both 4 and 5 string Sterlings are ceramic. SD will probably issue a version with the 3 flanges, seems logical, there should be many people asking for those, I think the SBMM affordable line opened the door to a lot of upgrading culture.

IME there's nothing wrong about that pickup. I own 2 USA Stingray5s and I don't miss anything vital in the timbre those pickups produce. The endemic problem in SUBs is the preamp, which has no headroom, thus distorts on peaks when you play hard (or when boosting the EQ if you don't play too hard). IMHO it should do OK with a 20€ Artec preamp upgrade (a 20€ Artec preamp is WAY better than what comes stock). There's a cheaper/quicker thing to try (I'd do it if it were mine as those preamps are useless to me as they come), which is feeding it 18V, therefore gaining headroom. Most if not all onboard preamps admit a wide range of supply voltage, which instrument manufacturers usually decide based on how hot the pickups of choice are. And that preamp is crap, I wouldn't care if it blew away (highly unlikely, have successfully done it with some other crappy onboards I wasn't concerned about eventually screwing up).

My main gripe with people testing this kind of preamp is the lack of balance when trying to show what they can do. I mean, blend either all try or wet (when the juice is in the middle really), same with drive control and so on. So there's lots of extremes and little real life usefulness showcased. My samples are usually the tone I run thru' most clean amps set flat (I use to carry my tone with me whatever the device, usually Zoom boxes, but also own a SansAmp RBI) and I record with pretty much that same tone. This is my kinda' tone in real life, I might a different OD flavor when running SansAmp but the function is the same, thick&crunchy. BTW, don't tell anybody, yesterday I was able to almost nail that same tone I got with the GUMA-Drive using just a Zoom G1Xon (tuned with effects from the B1Xon).

FYI, I don't miss not having a Darkglass emulation anymore in my previous gen Zoom gadgets. Thing is I got a GUMA-Drive kit (B3K clone) for Xmas and I managed to get it finished these days. I've been using it in conjunction with any of my Zoom multi-FX (MS-60B, B3, G1Xon with custom firmware), adding some clean BASS DRIVE (SansAmp emulation) to fatten up the bass+GUMA-Drive signal to the kind of tone I need for a flat EQ in my amp, and then compress with the 160 Comp (barely does any limiting, the GUMA-Drive/B3K compress A LOT). This is how it sounds. (Jazz Bass, first all open, then just the neck pickup, picked, drop-D, the GUMA-Drive set to drive=1 o'clock, level=2 o'clock, blend=1 o'clock, grunt=raw, attack=flat). The reproduction of the Darkglass sorta' tone has been puzzling me since I ditched the B1X4 last year. After using the GUMA-Drive for some days it was itching too much, so yesterday afternoon I spent about 1+ hour of A/Bing trying to get as close as I could to the kinda' tone I use (not the GUMA-Drive itself but the whole tone I use) just with what's available in the Zoom devices. Now, for the basics, we need to understand and decompose what a B3K OD does. In my observation and in order of importance it's: 1) CMOS distortion (main character of it all), 2) lo-mid grunt (this is what makes it "boxy" in a nice punchy way, compared to, say, a SansAmp), 3) hi-mid grinding peak and 4) compress (quite a lot). With this in mind I got to work, using my G1Xon (virtually a G1Xon + B1Xon) for maximum slot capacity and looked thru' the available distortions, to finally settle on the BA SQUEAK (blendable RAT emulation). Now, I know a RAT is hard clipping, not a CMOS type of overdrive, still, it's what gets me there. If you'd ask in the real world I'd say a RAT doesn't sound anything like a Darkglass overdrive, but hey, I've never ran into a RAT with a blend control in real life, ant also we're in Zoom's digital modelling mystery world here, combinations producing mystery results is sorta' expected. At first I thought the DI+ (MXR) emulation might be the best candidate, but I was wrong. The next best thing to the RAT is the METAL WORLD (Metal Zone emulation, using low gain&blend, flat tone), then came the TS+DRY (blendable Tube Screamer, gain about 60-70, tone about 60), the DI+ was far behind in comparison, my initial prediction was caca. So, here's my "DARKRAT" patch (real name)... 1) BA SQUEAK: gain=10, tone=50, level=100, bal=37 (does the CMOSey kinda' distortion necessary) 2) BASS DRIVE: bass=5, trebl=-5, prese=0, gain=70, blend=75, level=100, mid=-4 (fattens it up, cuts upper highs and further adds grunt, also takes out more mids, we need lo-mids and hi-mids, not much mid-mids in my tone as the kind of pick playing I do -soft pick played hard, alla' Nolly, but less metal, more punk/HC/rock- means a constant beat up of strings whipping the fretboard, the pickups, whatever) 3) BA PEQ: freq1=140, q1=1, gain1=6, freq2=2.0khz, q2=0.5, gain2=4, level=110 (both enhances the "lo-mid" grunt and the grinding peak of the distortion) 4) 160 COMP: thrsh=-20, ratio=10.0, gain=15, knee=soft, level=80 (self explanatory) 5) ZNR: thrsh=15, detct=gtrin, level=100 (pretty "binary" noise supression, several distortion stages make a lot of noise you don't want) Yeah, I know it's 5 effects (only workable on the B1on/Xon). SO, if you have the MS-60B (4 slots) you should try take out the ZNR first (less damaging to the tone). You might even get away with a B3 (just 3 slots) by also getting rid of the BA PEQ and try to make it work just with the EQ in the BASS DRIVE. So the minimal stuff to get you in the ballpark would be BA SQUEAK->BASS DRIVE->160 COMP. This is how it sounds from my G1Xon. If you compare with the sample in my second paragraph (same bass, same piece, same recording conditions) it's real close. There's some loss of detail in certain zones of the spectre, most notable between neck pickup parts, the GUMA-Drive is just a tad more detailed both in the high end and in the "clonk" zone (I suspect playing with the gain and tone controls of the RAT emulation could deal with that, the thing is to screw up the bass' character the least while still getting the amount of drive we need). Hope it helps anybody or at least serves as food for thought. EDIT: I even went as freakish as to compare spectres to adjust EQ. I made some minimal changes to the above patch and the Zoom sample you hear. This is how they compare...

Just finished a GUMA-Drive. Real happy with it. It was above my soldering skills (and gear) so it was mostly done by my brother (an engineer, designs electronics since he was 10 y/o). Also he had all the printing material needed, lacquer, etc. I really only applied primer and yellow to the box, that's about it All in all a nice project and one more great excuse to hang out with my bro, who recently moved close to me after being 12K km away for almost 2 decades. Now I only need to get him to sit seriously in front of a drumkit (he's a SOLID drummer, he just always had to be dragged when it came to making music, simply he leans to other stuff in life). It sounds like this (using my rat rod Jazz, both pickups, then just the neck, EQed and compressed after the GUMA-Drive). Will record a wider variety of samples and do a video once the missing knobs make their way home.

Don't get me wrong, I found the Four as usable as any of the other Zoom multiFX I've owned (BFX-708, 708II -replaced a Boss GT-6B-, B2.1u, MS-60B, B3, G3, G1Xon). Here's another sample, playing with the SansAmp and Darkglass emulations (details of what you hear in the YouTube description). Still, you can feel some of that boxyness in this clips when "clean" at the beginning... I remember this happening to me once more in the past, when switching from the 708II to the B2.1u. I kept the 708II until getting next generation's MS60B (which really destroyed everything Zoom I'd had before). Still a Zoom fanboy, waiting like a sucker for the next gen to show up. (I own 2 of those R24s indeed, basically my 16-track mobile recording app)

IME, the MS-60B/B3/B1on/Xon generation sounds better. I've owned a B1X Four last year and, even tho' it could sound great, it was basically NOISIER and BOXIER, had a sorta' narrow response and an annoying peak @180hz when A/Bed with the MS-60B. I could tell this same thing every time I've tried a B3n, but wasn't sure because I hadn't A/Bed it with my MS-60B. There's an added con, the Bass PEQ effect is now single band, when it was previously 2-band. So it kinda' defeats the purpose of having 1 more slot (4 to 5) if I have to heavily EQ it (2 instances) and add ZNR to every patch. Still there's fancy new stuff in the B3n/B1 four generation, such as hi/lo pass filter. BUT old ones have the AC BS PRE (Fishman preamp emulation) that carries a DEPTH param, which is a hi-pass filter (few people know or exploit this). The other thing the new models have is Darkglass emulations. I've had success in faking it with either the DI+ (MXR) emulation or blending plain Metal Zone emulation (still building a GUMA DRIVE for this -and for the fun-). I've given all details about my MS-60B vs. B1X Four adventure in a TalkBass thread. Also, here's a sample from a fellow BCer. It's not the tones I'd use, but it gives an idea of the overall voicing difference between the 2 generations. And no, my B1X Four wasn't a lemon, it worked perfectly and could definitely sound decent with enough tweaking, additional EQ and noise reduction. It's just that the MS-60B naturally sounds fuller and more quiet. Since ditching the B1X four I've added a B3 and a G3 (exclusively for home recording) and a G1Xon. Both the MS-60B and the G1Xon have custom firmwares with all its bass/guitar counterpart relevant stuff so I can use any with either bass or guitar (you can customize the firmware in the current generation too). My advice is get a used B1on or B1Xon (I got my G1Xon used months ago for 35€, power supply included).