drTStingray

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1384432775' post='2276580'] ... I'm only human. There are temptations I cannot resist. [/quote] Oh yeah!! Slightly off topic but have you seen the blue sparkle SBMM Ray 34 at Andertons - I'm sorely tempted!!!

Although the Gibson Ripper came first I suspect Fender set the scene by introducing natural finishes at the beginning of the 70s - thus Gibson and musicman followed the fashion. Dev70 - if you join the Musicman bass forum you can post your serial number and they'll give you the date it became a bass!! Unless it's a pre EB - in which case the best you can get is to check approx date against others on Musicman.org which is an independent site. Or take the neck off (something I would personally hesitate about doing)

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1383833181' post='2269739'] Yes, ironically enough, that "modern" bass sound has become very dated . To sound contemporary nowadays you would need to use an old P Bass with flats on . I never thought I would see the day, but there you go... [/quote] I don't think it's become dated Dingus. Just that modern pop music tends to mix bass in the background almost like an orchestral approach - and that soft pillowy ampeg and P bass with flats playing root notes in the background can be heard (well just about) quite often. Ironically this was just the sort of thing Jaco allegedly liberated bass players from. I have to say I don't remember the last time I heard a decent bass hook on a modern recording - or perhaps the bass is too quiet ........ Or my ears are shot!! Many famous songs use bass hooks but it now seems such an approach is not as welcome.

There again Marcus Miller used a 77 Jazz which he subsequently modified - and was told he needed to get a pre CBS one at the time but liked a shiny new one better. I like a lot of stuff he's played on as well and it didn't seem to stop him getting sessions........... And he still uses it!! The point being that this old = better tone argument's been around since the 70s and has been rejected by top pros and embraced by others over time. I don't recall many virtuosos using them. I have to say though I like joe osbornes work I had never thought his tone to be anything other than a polite Fender tone - surely this can be had, with appropriate skill, from a run of the mill Fender? That some pros choose to play ancient instruments may be more down to them loving the instruments and having the money and desire to have them - it is also a differentiator from the masses (of regular hobbyist or aspiring musicians) for a band of young and famous musicians to use expensive vintage ones - whereas in the 60s and 70s the use of a real Fender alone was enough.

I'm very comfortable that my favourite bass players got great bass sounds with new or newish instruments eg Nate watts - Sir Duke - Precision not passive but through an Alembic pre amp Nate watts - I Wish - Jazz not passive but through an Alembic pre amp Nate Watts - Do I Do - 79 Stingray Marcus Miller - Tutu - 77 Jazz Boz Burrell - Feel Like Making Love and Can't Get Enough of Your Love - newish Precision fretless?? Pino Palladino - Wherever I Lay My Hat - 79 Stingray fretless Etc etc etc If non vintage basses were good enough for them they're good enough for me!! And a little anecdote - I tried out a 76 Stingray in a shop in London fairly recently - played through a flip top Ampeg it sounded warm but lacking in power and the slap sound wasn't brilliant - maybe the pick up had started to suffer as Dingus said. The icing on the cake....... It didn't work at all above fret 15 - which I found out by playing a Nate Watts bass part!! It was on sale for more than I subsequently paid for my 2010 Classic Ray which sounds every bit as warm and especially recorded especially when using the functional mutes which didn't exist on the 76......... You are right about hearing as well. I play in a couple of bands with very aging rockers. - who claim they can only hear bass - needless to say they play excruciatingly loudly but can't hear the treble. Oh and they use vintage amps which don't project very well........ All of which is why I'm not a vintage guitar lover - fine for anyone who is but I think new instruments (like cars) are equally valid. And few people would drive a classic car day in day out!

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1383592303' post='2266371'] According to the inflation calculator , £252 in 1973 would be £2581 today . In 1989 a new Wal Custom would have cost you £790 full retail price , I know that because I bought one in that year ) . That is the equivalent of £1665 today . I'm not entirely sure what the relevance of that information is to this discussion , but I thought I would throw it in for anyone who is tormented by their desire for a Wal bass in the present . [/quote] Yes please - at that price!!!!! I think the issue is that instrument prices don't generally follow inflation - fashion seems to play a part and reflects to an extent what is fashionable musically at the time. This doesn't account for the boutique prices which I guess Wal could be described as.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383590513' post='2266332'] ... in Broad Street? ... on Snow Hill? I bought my first Fender at Woodruff's ... in Dale End? [/quote] Yes Snow Hill - how much did the P bass set you back?

Gentlemen you need to be very careful with views on values of instruments. Currently there is a Fender bubble - they are very very popular. This can change with the wind - in the early 80s you could barely give away new or old ones as Dingus mentioned. Some of you will not believe this but it's true! These cycles come and go. But the market for old guitars (and even old music up to a point) is age skewed - and many of those enthusiasts for old instruments are at the very senior end of the age scale. It is entirely possible the bubble may burst - how much or when is anyone's guess. One thing is for sure, they are only worth what people are willing to pay so if the market is saturated with instruments being sold by disinterested relatives, and the number of people wanting to buy them diminishes then the laws of supply and demand will suggest the prices will drop.

In 1973 the pinnacle of my bass desire was a new natural precision with maple board in the window of Yardleys in Birmingham - it was £252 - I was still a teenager and had just started my first proper job and earned 4 times that annually. The price of a new car of an upper spec say the equivalent of a Focus ST was the same as my annual salary. A terraced house would have set you back 4 or 5 times that salary. So the P bass would have been about £5000 against the car value - about £8 to £10K against the house and against an upper starter salary about £4000 in today's money. How much could I sell it for as a mojo d player (cos that's what it would be - did you see the belts we held our flares up with!!!) - say £1500 to £2000? And believe me even back then the old farts were telling us no laddie you need to buy a pre CBS - they're far better!!!! You also have to remember the world went comparatively mad in the mid 70s with soaring inflation following fuel supply issues caused by politics and war. However instrument prices didn't follow that pattern as born out by the Stingray value. As Dingus said, that happened in the 80s and indeed I sold my Stingray for significantly more than I paid for it. New basses are relatively good value and most definitely better specd and built these days......although those prices are nudging upwards again ........

I too have seen this bass, which I think was in another Denmark Street store and was moved by it! However Fender now make a 63 vintage reissue in this colour which is also appealing. I have avoided the temptation so far though! Are you sure it's not just the colour which took her eye?

I'm with Dingus on this. These were entry level basses back in the 80s at a time when the demand for Fender basses had all but collapsed. Combination of shift to keyboards instead of guitars and basses in pop music plus a vast array of superb product from other manufacturers - eg Yamaha, Ibanez etc etc etc. I see the Fullerton RI 80s Fenders are selling in vintage shops for just short of a grand also!! In the 80s people would be paying about £1000 for things like a Steinburger. You really would have been in danger of being sectioned paying these prices......... What will happen when the bubble bursts?? You are surely safer buying a US standard or maybe a vintage reissue?

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1382881672' post='2257483'] Yes! You went to the local shop and looked at what they had in terms of basses and chose from them . We were lucky that there were three shops in town that sold decent quality basses , but I still remember vividly the first time I ever went to the Bass Centre at Wapping and they had such a selection of sumptuous high-end basses that I had previously only ever seen on T.V or in magazines that I was almost overwhelmed . It was literally like being transported to some kind of bass guitar heaven . Back in those days they had the most amazing stock of any shop in the World , and they even had loads of different brands of strings to choose from ( but they always tried to flog you Elites) . Even now , I wish I could recapture the thrill of visiting that shop in its' heyday back in the 1980's . I think ordering basses ( and wider choice of strings) is a symptom of the increased amount of information consumers have nowadays and the creation of far more specific demand . The internet has been instrumental in that , no doubt . No one ever bothered about what basses weighed in those days either . If it was heavy , that was just another sign of quality. I can certainly see how some folks would take to Cobalts , but for me , like so many other more expensive strings, they were decent but not outstanding and I would be more inclined to buy two sets of ordinary EB'S than one set of Coblats , but that is with the caveat that, of course, that taste in strings is a highly subjective and personal thing. I like EB strings on a Music Man bass just fine, for example , but I'm not that keen on them on anything else I've tried them on . I've been toying with the idea of putting some flats on a bass recently , and the thought had crossed my mind that , instead of putting them on a Precision like most folks seem to I might put them on my Reflex to get that '70's Bernard Edwards -like thump . The idea is quite appealing and I may well explore that in the near future. Am I right in thinking that those Thomastics put far less tension on the neck that regular flats? [/quote] I remember going to an embryonic version of the bass centre in Romford - fantastic as you say - they had a wall of Trace Elliott stacks/combos. My Ray came from one of five or so shops in Birmingham - I had a choice of that one or one at another shop - both were sunburst when the go to was natural - still I was happy enough with it! I'd say the Thomastik flats are on a par, tension wise with EB group 3s. Both are virtually the same as standard guage roundwounds in that context. They are quite pricey but I love the tone. The group 3s are also v good though - still get bags of mwah from the 3 band fretless with them. I think flats on a Reflex would be great - they certainly are on a Ray and I've heard they are on a Bongo.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1382809579' post='2256869'] Re. buying Rotosound strings back in the day , how soon we forget in these days of the internet and the instant global exchange of information what things were like back in the olden days . If you wanted some new strings for your bass you went to the shop and asked for bass strings . A man with a beard muttered something about " these are alright" and you gave him some money , he handed you the packet of strings ( usually Rotosound) and took them home on the bus . There was no discussion about what you wanted , liked , didn't like ect. You then used the strings until they broke or wore out . Kids nowadays have no idea . And there was only three channels on T.V and on Sunday it was mainly religious programmes . How have you been going on with those Cobalts , Dr T? I didn't like what I perceived to be a slightly higher tension , and I thought the sound was perfectly O.K , but no better than say a regular set of EB's or similar . In terms of performance , I can't see how they justify the price . I think they feel a lot like stainless steel under the fingers , too (that's not a criticism, just an observation.) [/quote] The other thing about back then was you bought the bass in the shop - I'd never have dared ask anyone to order anything!! And a lot didn't get sold with cases. I did know of someone who ordered a left handed pre EB Ray however - probably the only way you'd ever see one!! Perhaps that's why non mainstream colours are so rare in this country? Re Cobalts Dingus, they really did work a treat on my Classic Ray - that upper mid boost was really useful and the lack of new string zing was also good. Extremely loud as well. I've had a set on a Bongo 5 for nearly two years now and they're still fine. Not sure on tension but if they have more it's very marginal. You're right that they feel different from nickel rounds - I thought they felt a little bit different - not as harsh as stainless though. I would still pay the extra - not something I would do with the Roto flats again!! They were quite expensive also!! I found out that MM changed the string spec on new Rays about 78 - going from flats to rounds. As a total devotee of Bernard Edwards who famously used a 77 Ray I put Thomastiks on my Classic - phenominal sound and it is still possible by boosting the treble to get a nice slap tone if you need it - think popping that sounds like Bernard Edwards on We Are Family. I've never been able to achieve that before but it's flatwounds, it appears.

Rotosound Jazz Bass 77 flats. Far too much tension for my liking - put me off playing the basses I fitted them to. I would go so far as to say, for me, made the basses virtually unplayable for anything but v simple parts. It's not a me v flats thing either - I have thomastiks on a Classic Ray and Ernie Ball Group 3s on a Ray fretless and love them. These have sensible string tension as well!! Favourite rounds? EB hybrid slinky, EB cobalts (particularly brilliant on a Classic Stingray), DR Marcus Miller fat beams, and believe it or not Rotobass 95-35 guage - have these on an HH Ray - it sounds very Mark King in tone (especially twin H slap) - AND they haven't died like their 66s do - must check fret wear sometime ........... Back in the late 70s and early 80s I didn't know anything but Rotosounds - in fact that may been all that was really available - at least in the shops I went to. My Ray must have shuddered when I swapped out the OE strings!!!!

The new Classic Sabre has the figured neck like the Classic Stingray but also the compensated nut used across the whole of the EB bass range except the Classic Ray and Sterling. The switching is different on the Classic Sabre - for one thing there's an HS setting which may be very useful, also the single coil options are said to be very good - they have a patented silent circuit which is designed to counter single coil hum. The late 80s and early 90s EB Sabre has a selector switch but with less intuitive options. The 16 pole piece neck pick up is designed to beef up the sound of that pick up compared with the pre EB Sabre variants. There are two pre EB variants - the earliest one has switches on the control plate and the bridge design which Leo took to G and L - the later pre EBs have the Stingray pre amp and bridge but with a selector switch on the body like the EB ones. The neck pick up still has exposed pole pieces though. All Sabres have contoured bodies - some pre EBs have a narrower neck dependent on the option originally ordered. Have a look on musicman bass.org for more info and the EB Musicman site should have info re both the new and old Sabre switch selector. Better still find somewhere to try both types - I believe a famous bass shop near Camden has right now!!

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1382621803' post='2254526'] The Strings run straight on the flea bridge too don't they? I know the ones with the Allen heads are not actually flea bridges but that's what i see often referred to as one in for sale listings etc. [/quote] The Flea bridges are circa 92 to circa 94. The hex bolt ones are the same with the mutes removed referred to as transitional bridge - circa 93 to 96. All shown with pics on musicman.org. Nice white Sub btw

The hex screw in place of mutes is from 95/96 - maybe some 94s, Pete. Several 92 and 93s I've seen including my own have mutes. The material they use must be more resilient now - my 93s show no wear and neither those on my 2010 classic. Presumably glues are more space age tech in the mainstream now!! The 'Flea bridge' is something a bit different - offset of strings and the bridge barrels have slots to fit the approx string guage for each one. Apparently a certain artist plucked so hard they had a tendency to pull the strings off!!! I believe the hex screw thing was because people had alleged injury catching their hand on the mute assembly plate - must have been incredibly heavy handed - same guy perhaps - lawyers etc etc!! Sterling Ball has said in the past they had no issue with Flea just his people, or something similar - don't quote me. It's prob still somewhere in the MM bass forum old threads.

The mutes are on all basses up to about 94 incl Sterlings. Then the same bridge was used with the mute plate removed for a couple of years. The 20th anni Ray introduced a shorter bridge without the mutes followed through to standard production from then to date. All classic basses have them - Sabre Ray and Strtling. They are so easy to use I have wound them on during sets, and remember this is major flexibility - just using them on the E is great for slap - wind them on a little for a slight muted sound - all the way for real Motown thump but combined with sort of clarity live you expect on a recorded P bass. I've used them for recording and they make things really thumpy. The mute rubbers they used on pre EBs used to fall off - the one on my G fell off on about the third gig I did with it about 1980 - if you look at pics of pino in the early. 80s one of his is missing. Not uncommon to find pre EBs with the whole lot missing these days. Just a little pointer to how manufacturing and materials have improved since the 50s 60s 70s! Those of us who had cars back then vividly remember - switches and sun visors could come off in your hand lol! Imagine the mechanicals!!!

No not at all. They have great string to string balance - just record yourself to hear that - you can also hear that with the instrument soloed. Because they have a massive bass sound with the EQ on full/ heavy bass boost it tends also to be scooped like that. You don't lose the G string you lose the apparent mids when standing in the band if you insist on using full bass boost. Rest assured the audience still hears it. You find most Stingray players don't have this problem. What you doing playing on the G string anyway - you're a bass player eh????!!!!

Natural/maple is THE classic Stingray combo IMHO. Maybe worth trying some in shops to keep the GAS burning strongly! Best of luck with getting one anyway.

For pre EB bear in mind there are about six different versions of the pre amp between 76 and 79. I think there will be far more difference caused by player fingers and technique than you'll detect from different pre EB pres. I once tried a very early production 76 Ray - it didn't have enough treble sizzle for my liking.

I'm sure there are lots of conflicting views on this but this is my take and I have owned both pre EB and currently have several EB ones. The 2 band pick up and electronics remain as the post 1979 version - with the exception of a couple of safety mods to avoid battery drain and reducing the possibility of frying the circuit (by user error!). All post circa early 90s Rays of all types have 6 bolt neck attachment with truss rod adjustment by a wheel at the body end - pre that they have four bolt with bullet truss rod and pre circa 79/80/81 3 bolt with accessible tilt mechanism. The 6 bolt version not only gives much more convenient access to adjust the truss rod it's a better joint system - much more rigid. The body wood is thought by some to give a slight difference to the sound - solid colours between EB taking over and the late 90s may be poplar - slightly more mellow at the extremes of EQ than ash. Trans red usually alder - also mellower in the same way. Many early 80s colours except natural may be alder. The classic differences from a regular EB are largely cosmetic - the strings through and mute bridge can give more sustain (mine is a sustain monster) and those mutes with flats can give thump to frighten any P bass into submission. Your other key choice is 3 band versus 2 band. As someone who has used both on the same gig the 3 band has more versatility in those rooms with nasty boomy acoustics and also those bands with nasty guitarists who spend to long trying to fill the lower frequencies - the 3 band gives more versatility - with a 2 band I'd deal with this from my amp if I needed to - and it would be the upper mids. If you're on a budget a US made sub will do the job - a regular two band will do the whole job with a little less beauty than a classic but at a much reduced cost. 3 band is more versatile and more plentiful used. If vintage is your bag pre EB is good but comes with the same health warning as any vintage bass - for me the late 80s early 90s basses are also iconic - combining birds eye necks and in some cases cool rare colours. And then there's the anniversary and two pick up models...........!!! Hope you find one you like.

Cripes you guys haven't lived!! Musicman bongo, reflex or big al - turn up the bass EQ - phenominal!!!

I agree with you guys - I bought my natural SR5H back in 2003 for £995 brand new. I'm sure people bought SR4s back in the early 90s for less than that. The prices fluctuate. The used ones have been pretty consistent. As for Fender prices, well they those basses are flavour of the month currently and the other day I saw a thread on Talkbass seeking advice on swapping a US Stingray for an MIM Fender - being collected by men in white coats springs to mind. The prices generally reflect what people are willing to pay and how desperate to sell they are. Plus elements like current fashion or special features which may raise the price. Don't underestimate fashion - I was listening to the radio yesterday and several tracks from the 80s were featured - there was not a bass guitar in sight - all synths. And guess what - prices of the more ubiquitous guitars were rock bottom then - I sold a Stingray easily at that time for half as much again as I paid for it new then - a studio bought it - but pity the poor Fender owner trying to sell at that time - worse still the owner of a new one.

The Musicman Bongo headstock is very good for poking other band members eyes out on stage - or stage invaders.....