drTStingray

[quote name='DaytonaRik' timestamp='1389861954' post='2338679'] Ok, so I'm a relative newcomer to the world of bass as a long time guitarist and am no fan-boy of either model, but I struggle with this whole "P bass is better" argument. Just how can a single p/u bass with a basic tone/volume circuit be more versatile than a splitable p/u with a 3 band active EQ...and that's without including the HH/HS options? If I was to make a guitar-based comparison, it's akin to someone swearing their single P90 shod Gibson Les Paul Jnr is more versatile than a PRS Custom 24 with multiple coil taped p/us. Whilst I agree that a lot of great P players have produced a wide range of sounds, and the same be said for my guitar-based comparison, just how much of that variation comes from technique and amplification rather than the instrument itself? Preference is one thing i.e. you may prefer one over another, but does that make it more versatile? Just my thoughts on the argument. [/quote] I couldn't agree more - it really is a daft argument of the type you hear in car owning circles - x bog standard car (just happens to be the one they chose) is as good as y gt sports version because you can't get the best out of the gt version because the traffic gets in the way...........as someone who's played bass for over 40 years the idea the Precision wins in this match is plain bonkers - yes it is good at some things, but basically bread and butter things virtually any bass is good at. There must be more internet myths hatched about the Stingray than many other basses - fact is for me they have been the basses used on lots of memorable music - anyone who couldn't get one to sit in a mix properly hasn't tried very hard or is not using the right techniques to achieve it. I just listened to White Boys and Heroes by Gary Numan - nice Pino slapped line - and you could NOT get a precision in that ball park if you had the skill and wanted to.

Surely bass players create the 'groove' which makes people want to dance - hell even Leonard Cohen has a groove player in Roscoe Beck. The groove player locks in with the drums and other rythmn section instruments to create the feel behind or underpinning the song. And the groove needs to be appropriate for the song. There's no problem in my mind with a groove being a simple line but a plodding one is a bit much and they do exist I think. A groove might also be a complex one. However I do have a problem with note counters who know nothing about the function of the bass and merely see it as a subset of the six string - there are far too many bedroom singers who accompany themselves, say on guitar or keyboard, who have to really learn about playing 'ensemble' - some never make that jump - some do. I find listening to music without a groove unrewarding and tiresome in most cases - but that's just my preference and probably why I play bass - when I encounter note counters it's as tiresome as railway enthusiasts who are also rivet counters (I'm a bit of the former but definitely not the latter btw).

Pino's playing is frankly just awesome. He has a capability to play complex bass lines and still create a tight groove - something I would not credit John Entwhistle with. I've been trying for 40 years or so to do the same thing with varying degrees of success! I had three CDs for Christmas amongst other things - No Parlez by Paul Young, Assassin by Gary Numan, and Voodoo by D Angelo. The link is Pino - I'd learnt most of the No Parlez stuff back in the day but never heard the other two. According to the cover notes Assassin was a year before No Parlez and Pino was on it largely because Numan had had some sort of disagreement with Mick Karn - you can conjecture on whether No Parlez would have happened without. Anyway the playing is phenominal, as indeed it is on Voodoo. It does inspire me, to the extent I took my fretless Ray and played it for part of my gig Friday night - not only did I get nice comments from other band members i got several from audience members - not sure if any Alan Partridge fans were there but I did replicate the air bass line - right after the drum solo!!! Pino is on the Standing in the Shadows of Motown DVD and IMO plays one of the best replications of Jamerson groove on the whole thing. So he is a bass god in my eyes - amongst the very best to have walked the planet - and apart from strange tone is a more than fitting player to stand in for Entwhistle - plays a mean solo in My Generation!!! Not sure what other Who fans are looking for and I've had lots if debates with mates who are bass players and have the not worthy view - Entwhistles tone changed around so much. I think Pino approximates it - and from reading interviews learns the lines as closely as possible to the extent of revisiting when he notices the air players playing high up when he's not for instance.

I agree with you and some of these 'new' basses on display have been around for some time - like years in some cases - strangely the price also fluctuates as RRP shifts! I've bought three new Musicman basses - one was from distributor stock - the other two were ordered by the dealer from the factory - this was because no one had the colour I wanted. However it's not easy to get a distributor to order one for you - some are more keen on selling stock items - I would expect a discount on these. I have seen all sorts of ruses to get you to buy a stock item - I well recall going to music shops in Denmark street as my son wanted to try leftie Fender guitars - particularly teles. One shop had one but it was in a wierd colour and he wanted a sunburst - he was told he should buy one as soon as possible because Fender had discontinued them!!!!! Needless to say he bought the one he wanted on line a couple of months later - and they hadn't been discontinued - although the strange shade of green on the one in Denmark Street had! The shop has changed hands so is not there any longer.

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1389140185' post='2330677'] Having said all that, I may well buy another P bass when a couple of basses I have for sale eventually go. This will be because a lot of the people that I might end up playing with seem to prefer them at the moment... [/quote] I presume these other people are not bassists - I think I can guess what instrument they play. I must say this problem has never affected me though I've been asked by other musicians who I wasn't working with why I didn't use a Precision!! I think that people have not been bothered what instrument I used (though some would probably have baulked at a Flying V bass or similar!!) and were interested in how the sound and playing enhanced the music as a whole. A Stingray probably looks very similar to a P or a J to Joe Public particularly in sunburst or black. I see this analogous with the electrician questioning or dictating what instrument the carpenter should use or at a different level, the vicar or accountant dictating the equipment the surgeon should use.......... Thankfully for many of us the above doesn't happen as a result of professional or craft rules and legislation - there has long been a belief amongst some musicians that owning of guitars by some people should be outlawed!!!!!!!!

[quote name='Tdw' timestamp='1389109729' post='2330113'] I play mostly reggae so for me it would be a precision, i agree with what Steff said about stingrays lacking warmth on the lowest notes although i do like my stingray a lot. [/quote] This can be achieved by simply playing over the neck joint on a Stingray and ensuring you don't have treble boosted. Better still use a Ray HH or HS (and they scoop like Jazzes with both pick ups on so my experience is boosting the mids can be helpful). I believe it's the upper mid which scoops on a Stingray (indeed a guy showed me on a recorded track I did - you can boost this with the mid control on a 3 band or by avoiding too much boost on a 2 band - and also by amp settings. I also think that many people commenting on this thread talk of the sound they hear on stage in front of their amp - the sound out front can be very different. Believe me I have heard more Fender P and J basses disappear in mixes than I care to remember - indeed that is why people started pre amping basses in the 70s. Yes amps have improved and speakers but how many people do I hear waxing lyrical over 60s valve amp and P set ups nowadays - yes those very ones that disappeared into the mix in those 60s and 70s days? As Grand Wazoo said, the OP needs to try the basses for himself - a bass guitar is a tool and the way it is played has as much if not more bearing than the bass itself. The P and Ray are both excellent tools. Just remember the likes of Larry Taylor, Jamerson, Babbitt smacked hell out of their basses to get those sounds - watch Leo Lyons of ten years after back in the 60s and 70s - same thing. I once talked at length with a guy who ran a company providing back line and PA for many touring acts of that era - he particularly mentioned Kool of Kool and the Gang - whose P bass action was said to be phenominally high and the bass was equipped with flatwounds of some tension. These guys really had to play their basses quite hard. Most of these bass players were, of course ex double bass players who were accustomed to a certain amount of physical effort and high action - this is the heritage the P bass comes from - the Ray comes from the mid 70s where bass guitarists were exploring more technical ways of playing - not only in soul and funk but it permeated right through to studio contrived middle of the road pop and even orchestras backing variety shows on tele such as Morecombe and Wise etc - even to tele themes. Jaco esque fretless became very popular and I have just bought two albums, one by Gary Numan and one by Paul Young where Pino exploits the fretless Ray's ability to do this - not all one sided - listen to Boz Burrell on a fretless P on tunes like Feel Like Making Love - Bad Company. None of this is about that bass cuts through and this one doesn't - I believe much of that is down to individual skill and not allowing sound people to ruin your sound. Both the P and the Ray are excellent groove player's basses. The Ray can be made to be a bit more of a solo type instrument but don't get hung up on that - they can both groove great!! Remember the bass is a tool to allow the player to express themselves - the rest is down to the skill of the player. OP try them - hopefully with an open mind!!

And another thing, can you get the £14k bass at a significantly reduced price if you don't have to pay Anthony Jackson's appearance fee to present it to you - much as it would be very nice to meet him of course. Can't be cheap though flying him in from the states with the bass for presentation ;-)

I shall definitely watch again next year - unless shock horror - a NYE gig crops up - but I must say the channel hopping experience was quite good this year. Thank The Lord the been haven't gone all retro 60s and do the White Heather Club with Andy Stewart or similar - a nightmare of childhood days!!

A little late on this - not even sure where I've been redirected to!! Shame on you guys - you mean to say you weren't watching the Gary Barlow extravaganza on bbc1 with the fabulous Lee Pomeroy rocking his Stingray 5 and Rickenbacker - and whoever said the bbc mix the bass to be heard didn't watch this - apart from Mr B's vocals the loudest thing in the mix was the audience and the drum kit - yipes talk about crash cymbals - made me jump more than the firework display which was fabulous in itself!! After all that excitement we wound down watching jules and were quite impressed - especially with that bass sound - but did you hear the band tuning issues at the start of Lisa Stansfield's all around the world - quite bizarre - it definitely sounded like them not her!! And what is the world coming to - all is musos not gigging on New Year's Eve ............ Time was when it paid the most for a semi pro of anytime in the year! I blame cheap supermarket booze!!

I agree with you Dingus that the lack of a centre detent on the 2 band Ray tends to make it more a case of starting from full boost and cutting back to get your sound, whereas with the 3 band the tendency is to start at centre detent. I would like to dispel the myth about the 3 band EQ - I have both versions and whilst the 2 band makes lovely sounds the 3 band is a lot more flexible, especially if you're playing in a room with strange acoustics and without PA assistance for the bass. I've used the 2 band and 3 bands in the same gig and the 3 band has a lot more mid presence. However with bass and treble slightly boosted, and mids slightly cut on the 3 band, and the 2 band with both bands boosted above centre, I would defy anyone to distinguish the difference between the 2 and 3 band sounds. The 3 band can excel at getting a more modern type sound as well, and as I said, control of those mids on the fly can be very helpful - my fretless is 3 band and I find it invaluable to be able to tweak mids for some songs.

I have done this to an extent in that I often use a bass, the first example of which I bought in 1979. It is a 2EQ Stingray. I learned to play initially on a Jazz copy and hankered after a Precision for many years - heaven knows why because virtually none of my favourite bassists used them other than the 60s soul guys - and for them, at that time, it was probably the best thing around for that genre. So I bypassed the Fenders and went straight to a Musicman. I have been tempted to buy a Precision many times since then but have not succumbed. I wonder how many of you 'complex to simple' bassists will go the whole hog - to an upright - the Electric bass was a very poor substitute for the complexity of tone which comes out of an upright - indeed really a totally different instrument. And I recall the same debate as is being had here between upright and electric bass. In some modern music the bass is virtually in audible - why on earth would this be? It's almost as if some producers are these days trying to emulate the sound of guitarist run jam sessions!!! With very loud drummers!! No doubt fashion will change and common sense will return.

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1388257678' post='2320134'] Fender = Could be a Mondeo, could be a Mustang. Alembic = Perhaps a dated supercar, but a supercar none-the-less. [/quote] Way off topic but I would say Fender = town runabout (but as the current incarnations of favourite basses came about in 1957 and 1962 ish - say Ford Popuar and Cortina deluxe) - the Alembic is a grand tourer in comparison - 1970s Ferrari would fit the bill!!

Dee Murray played a G and L L1000 on the later Elton John stuff - a bright red one IIRC. His new bass player also plays MM basses so Elton must be happy with the sound. Did any of the Ray nays on this thread ever try flatwound on their Rays? Now there's a classy and very versatile combination.....

I have flats on my Classic Ray. They sound great and when combined with the significant changes in sound you get plucking over the neck joint, rolling on the mutes and then EQ setting they're pretty versatile and give tons of thump. Amazingly you can get a great mid 70s slap sound with them - the only way I've ever been able to make my popping sound like Bernard Edwards on We Are Family. Someone told me Rays came with flats new until 1978 which may explain this! I have the best of both worlds - a Ray with flats and another with rounds. I have also heard of owners of MM Bongos going weak at the knees at the sound of flats on them. The thing is a bass with a powerful EQ will give great variety even with flatwounds - but in my experience more thump!

I'm afraid that for me there is little point in comparing basses of this standard and ability to create a professional recorded or live sound. To use a festive analogy it's rather like comparing sherry trifle and normal fruit trifle. Probably a matter of personal taste. I would say the Stingray is far more likely to expose poor technique than the precision - simply by the detail of playing being more audible with the Ray than the precision. I wouldn't want to try and play, say, Teen Town on a Precision .............. but then neither was Jaco a fan, highlighting certain limitations when asked. Many famous performances on them have been enhanced with outboard pre amps - Sir Duke being a good example. Both basses are extremely competent but I would personally never choose a Precision over a Ray - indeed I've played many over the last 30 years - both good and bad - and have never been persuaded to part with any money for them. Other people love them for one reason or another and good luck to them. Too limiting for my liking but nice for Motown etc / but then so is the Stingray.

They're both equally good for recording generic bass sounds. However one bass goes many steps beyond - no prizes for guessing which. Summed up:- In my book one stands for pedestrian; the other for supreme!! But seriously they are both great. The P lacks rather in the dynamic department but if you want to play pre 1970 stuff or pre 70 throw back material then a P will fit as well as anything (unless you're in a Cream tribute band; or a Beatles tribute band etc etc )

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1388016399' post='2317954'] There is no different tone in it.... you can hear them a mile off. You always have that unmistakeable Ray sound. Not everyone goes for the same same sound, of course, but the character is there..always. You wouldn't use one otherwise.... It is as much a unique sound as a Jazz or a P, or a Smith... [/quote] Well yes the character is there but that is true of any bass. How about a Ric - people overlook the fact Paul McCartney, Chris Squire and Lemmy sounded totally different on a similar instrument. But it doesn't take much skill to get a vast array of sounds from a Ray - but you need skill in the fingers to unlock it. How diverse can you get between Tim Commerford, Louis Johnson and Bernard Edwards ......... and Carl Raddle, Pino Palladino etc etc etc. and you can tweak the tone controls to adjust your sound. In 35 yrs of playing them, I've found them far from a one trick pony - that adage is yet another silly internet myth. There can be few other bass models which have shown such a range of signature sounds on recorded media as stated above. So JTUK I have to completely disagree with you!!

And then there are USA Sub Sterlings (for confused newcomers - these are not the Sterling by Musicman Sub range) - very very rare but I seem to recall they have a 3 band EQ but no coil selector switch and the same fit and finish as the Sub 4 - don't think I've ever seen one apart from in photos or on EBay. Is it possible these have the standard Sterling ceramic series wired pick up? McNach thanks for clarifying yours - and I had forgotten the Sub 4 Ray has the 2 band EQ so is no doubt nice with a series wired pick up. Does anyone remember how much these retailed for? I seem to remember the old Bass Cellar having a job lot of them at around £400 apiece? They seem to be on the secondhand market for just under that now!

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1387898450' post='2317031'] So when you requested someone to confirm this series/parallel spec were you looking for members from here to oblige or will you trust only a sworn affidavit direct from the Ernie Ball corporation? As you apparently don't view my experience (and by proxy the many others who have discussed and experienced this exact thing both here and on the EB site) as valid perhaps you like me to contact EB forthwith and get the official word. I'd be more that happy to deliver you a swift one from the Balls this Xmas. Have a cool Yule doc. [/quote] Well I did check it out several years back and it was the EBMM people who said they are parallel. I have heard of other people with Subs that are parallel wired. I don't doubt you at all - but there's clearly an inconsistency. Have a good Christmas yourself!

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1387883526' post='2316752'] Well according to the people who own them.... No "dismantling" necessary. Just whip 'em out. My 'ray pup and my SUB pup.... [/quote] Did it come like that new? Is it a Sub Sterling or Sub Stingray? If it is permanently in series it will not sound like a Stingray - my SR5 sounds more active Fender is series and more Stingray in parallel - still a good sound though. A lot of Subs have been used as project basses so you never totally know what you're getting. However a parallel wired one with 2 band EQ will sound pretty close to any regular 2 band Ray. However for me there is nothing quite like an ash bodied trans finish Ray with nice wood figuring with a maple board and I believe they have a certain sound about them also.

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1387840119' post='2316447'] Stingrays are wired parallel, SUBs in series. And one uses ceramic magnets while the other alnico (I canna mind which is which just now). [/quote] Not according to the company who made them - they say they were all parallel - after all parallel wired pick up is part of the Stingray magic. One or two members have dismantled their Sub pick ups and found them wired in series - did they come from the factory like that? Who knows! Perhaps someone can confirm. Has anyone looked at a Sub 5 pick up. For starters the standard SR5 has a glued on pick up cover - presumably the Sub 5 does? Basically the USA built sub is a slab bodied Ray with a poplar body and lower spec finishing and 2 band active or plain passive electronics. Basically they sound virtually identical to a 2 band Ray at about 50 to 60% of the secondhand value of a Ray.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1387828610' post='2316272'] It is a single humbucker pickup with a simple pre amp. I don't need an Ed Friedland review to tell me about a bass I used exclusively for 10 years, tbh. When I think Stingray, I think classic Louis Johnson and the sound of those days have long gone. I think the reason people get a Stingray is for a specific sound... [/quote] I use Stingrays almost exclusively for everything I play - it's not for a specific sound - they cover all genres incredibly well. Anybody with a bit of skill can get a Louis Johnson sound, a Bernard Edwards sound or a Flea sound or a 'generic bass sound' amongst others with one. But the point here is the OP wonders if he ll miss his Ray if he sells it. I suspect he will but only my opinion.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1387825446' post='2316202'] They are a bit one-trick IMO........, [/quote] I have to say I don't believe any bass is a one trick pony ............. least of all a Ray - watch Ed Friedland's review of a classic stingray if you don't believe this - now on the other hand bass players sometimes are indeed one trick ponies - I sometimes find myself sliding into this rut - and it ain't the instrument!!

Well if you like the sound you get out of a Ray then a jazz or a p is very unlikely to replace it. That's not to say a p or j is not a good bass - for some they are but I have to say I've never heard these instruments played by anyone I'd list as a favourite player without an outboard (or inboard) pre amp!! I freely admit I don't get it with these instruments - I recently played a 63 p reissue and 64 j reissue in a shop - preceding that I played a Wal mk 1 and after a 78 Stingray. The p and j looked gorgeous but the covers prevented aggressive playing except in front of the pick up ( neck one on the jazz) and they frankly sounded pedestrian - lacking detail in sound. Someone in the shop was trying out a Ric and it sounded far better at routine bass things and had a lot more to boot. Compared with the Wal and Stingray they sounded positively low fi. Another interesting point - I listened to and watched a DVD recently of ten years after in 1991 - now Leo Lyons is some bass player but hitherto I'd only really heard him play tya stuff on an old jazz through Marshall stacks. This time he was playing a Warwick through Hartke (4 x 4 x 10) - for the first time I could hear the detail of his playing.........which was fabulous - I've only been waiting since 1969 to hear such things!! So my take is the. P and j are excellent meat and potatoes basses for some genres but then so are most basses - but if you want to go further..... Or want the detail of your playing to be heard - or like the sounds your Ray can get then don't sell your Ray!!

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1387547476' post='2313226'] It is a 4 string. It is one of the nicest ones I have ever seen . You are in serious trouble. [/quote] Do you know what, I looked at the pics and the last thumbnail (from the Wal site) at the bottom shows a 5 string headstock - I hadn't noticed previously - my mind immediately said you are ok it's a fiver!! And you are right that is very beautiful and I am caused a major problem!!