drTStingray

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1386635187' post='2302623'] Surely it would be possible to track down the previous owner responsible for this" work" and bring them to justice? Instead of contacting Martin Simms and the Bass Doc I would be more inclined to get in touch with Interpol! This is a guitar crime the likes of which I have seldom seen. If this bass could talk , all it could probably say would be " Aaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!", or at or maybe just "Ouch!". What I find hard to understand is why , even before they were as valuable as they are now ( fifteen years ago you could easily pick up a decent used Wal for £600) , someone would choose a Wal of all basses to do this to. It just makes no sense. It's like giving me a pair of fake breasts, a jug of custard and wig and expecting me to be able to perform a Liza Minnelli tribute act at a local holiday camp . This bass would never substitute for a Jazz Bass , even if you lived in Albania and had previously been playing bass on an egg slicer strung with razor wire and tuned down an octave. All I can say is that my thoughts and prayers are with the victims of this senseless and vicious attack . Lets hope you can at least give this poor beast a dignified and comfortable existance for the rest of its' days . [/quote] Cripes - couldn't agree more - the following simple adage normally applies to selected owners of the six string variety of guitar (not bass) - but obviously applies to some bassists as well. 'Some people should not be allowed to own guitars!' This crime is akin to removing the engine of a Classic Ferrari and replacing it with a souped up Ford Anglia engine. Hope you manage to get it back to former glories. Wouldn't Wal be willing to do it?

Thank The Lord it's not a 4 or I would have had a serious problem with this bass

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1387378345' post='2311287'] A Wal would be a great addition to your collection , not least of all because of the contrast between that and your Stingray, ect, like chalk and cheese. Looking back , when I was 21 years old I had a Wal Custom and a pre -EBMM Stingray (and a 30 inch waistline) . And I still used to complain that life wasn't fair . That will probably be because of the mullet hairstyle , though. [/quote] 30 inch waists are very much a thing of the past for me as well - Dingus you were making serious money to have a Wal custom at 21! Rightly or wrongly I've always viewed the Wal sound as a development of a Stingray type sound but the basses themselves are totally different as you say. I really was surprised how natural the bass felt for me to play and the sounds produced are just brilliant. Even slap sounds great . So yes a definite must have for me.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1387385862' post='2311395'] Veering OT for a moment.... Alan Spenner first got my attention in the Grease Band and then up close and personal in the sweaty pubs and clubs he used to play with Kokomo. I feel blessed to have seen that band as often as I did. [/quote] Shamefully off topic - but I was also blessed to see him play with the Kokomo line up towards the end of the 70s at the Roundhouse - I'm pretty sure he played the Wal - my abiding memory of this gig was them playing one of Rose Royce's 10 minute high production disco funk songs - what you waiting for - in which he did a couple of phenominal bass solos, one of them slapped! Criminally overlooked as Dingus said - this guy really had the funk - he's also the bass player on the original soundtrack of Jesus Christ Superstar - sounds like Jamerson on steroids! Back to the Wal - I was given a talk through of the controls on the Mark 1 and I found no problem using them and getting great sounds out of it - the one thing I found a little disconcerting was the neck and fretboard - I found it reminiscent of a Warwick - basically not what I'm used to but at the same time it didn't hinder me - the frets seemed a little closer together than I'm used to. I really would love one of these basses.

I have to agree with you all. I spent a day noodling in guitar shops recently with the idea of relieving one of them of a Musicman Sabre - of which I tried 3 - all rather nice BUT they had a Wal and horror of horrors I tried it - it was absolutely fabulous and I now want a Mk 1 quite badly - I always loved the sound Alan Spenner and Percy Jones got from theirs. And whoever said this ain't no P bass is quite right - the next bass I played was a v expensive sonic blue P which looked the nuts - but sounded like sh** in comparison and with those covers in place was really quite difficult to play. My last noodling of the day was on a 78 Ray which was rather nice - and reminded me why Fender basses became almost extinct in the late 70s/80s. But the Wal is in different league and is most definitely on my GAS radar now........bloody expensive though - but fantastic basses.

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1386442261' post='2300251'] A curious bass. [/quote] Herbie looks uncannily like Mick Jagger (late young period, before middle age set in). Anyway I prefer Herbie's tuba playing - Tuba Smarties is v good. Actually that's not strictly true - I love his playing on Space Oddity and several other tracks as well. He's part of English bass guitar folk lore along with Jet Harris and John Paul Jones...........we shouldn't fall out over the age of his old Fender as it matters so little - it's old and interesting. For those arguing about prototypes, there are prototypes and pre production prototypes - there were a few of both in the case of the Musicman Stingray. Look at car models - you'll find examples of both. I'm inclined however to go along with Ricks Fine 52's view of this bass.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1385252211' post='2286222'] I'm developing this theory that Precision or Jazz style bass is such a basic design that it's essentially the quality of the neck and pickups, possibly the body and then the skill of whoever bolts it together and sets it up that differentiates a good one from a bad one. Get it working for you right and it will outplay basses 3-4 times the value. [/quote] Sorry to be pedantic but doesn't it also depend largely on the quality of the player - I remember someone on here saying they'd seen one of the top pros play someone's starter level bass and made it sound good. OP that's a great looking bass - nice score.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1384794856' post='2280808'] Loads of fives infact most are 3&2? Are you having a moment drT I recall someone saying they will only buy fives that are 2&3 as it gives more space and wood around the B and E tuners yet they are not very common with most I see being 3&2 or just 5 in a row instead. Smith being the only one off the top of my head from the none one off custom stuff. [/quote] Very possibly!!!!! Lol. I don't get out much but I'm sure all EBMMs are 4 over 1, and Fenders are either 5 in line (neck dive??!!) or 4 over 1. When I first saw a Lakland with 3 over 2 on the tele back in the early 90s, pre internet and pre much bass info being widely around, I thought it was a new Musicman so similar was the headstock concept!! I guess I was thinking fender/musicman style headstock rather than the Warwick/Spector/Wal pattern!!!

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1383049177' post='2259466'] Type 1: Type 2: [/quote] There's a type 1a - pre EB as type 1 (ie exposed pole pieces - but neck pick up with possibly shorter pole pieces) stingray EQ and bridge but with slide switch as per the post EB version. This is so different as to probably be type 2 and the EB 80s/90s version pictured above is type 3. The new EBMM classic sabre is as type 3 but with different coil selections, single coil patented noise reduction, the 6 bolt neck joint and wheel truss rod adjuster with birds eye or flame maple figured neck - type 4?!!

You're ok with a 3 + 2 afaik unless Lakland has patented it. Funnily enough no one else (not even Musicman) seem to use this for a fiver but IMHO it looks great. The 3 + 1 is patented I think and EBMMs lawyers do pursue in particular knock offs (ie people selling fakes) - all this helps buyers to have confidence in what they're getting. I bet Fender are kicking themselves their designs/layouts weren't patented back in the day!!!! As someone who's thought about buying a vintage Fender the first thing that crossed my mind is is it a fake / then is it a jumble of spare parts - worse still a refin jumble of parts etc etc. All would be far simpler if they'd bothered in the first place I reckon!!

Pete, I have to take issue on some of your points - and I'm sorry your Classic Ray was a disappointment sonically - they're generally very good [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1384633637' post='2279042'] 1- Poor neck stability on ebmm versions with unfinished necks. Possibly on occasional examples but not a general issue - and EBMM are approachable if you have a problem. 2- Some shoddy fret levelling from new (my own 2010 ray 5) Again not a general issue 3- Low output from preamp (my classicray, swapped for a john east). Very surprising 4- Finish cracking and crazing on 70s basses (cool to some, gash to others). As with many makes of basses of this era 5- Weak G phenomenon, never had it myself but others swear by it. I have - caused by over enthusiastic EQ choice - especially bass boost 6- Batteries being eaten by faulty preamps, quite rare but it can happen. EBMM improved the design by adding features to stop battery drain when plugged in and to avoid pre amp frying 7- Faulty jacks, happens to most basses but the ray has an extra tab for the circuit. Probably to do with 6 above 8- Some bridge saddles pull to one side or let the string jump out of the groove. Corrected in the early 90s - you'd need to be an arm wrestler or seriously out of your head on something to achieve this. Im sure there are other faults but you get the idea, they are actual faults rather than the weight or body shape, string spacing etc, those are things it is meant to leave the factory with like the Ric pickup cover. [/quote] But I get your point!!

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1384683838' post='2279352'] The biggest problem most bassists have with a Rickenbacker is that they are not a Fender bass. They see lots of well-known players getting great sounds out of them and basses are very iconic looking in themselves. However the whole design and construction philosophy behind Rickenbacker owes virtually nothing to Leo Fender. So of course it's going to be different. That's the whole point. If you've spent your whole playing life playing instruments that are deign one way you can't really expect to be immediately comfortable on one built in a completely different style and that also may require you to think about your band's overall mix in a different way to find it's place sonically. It seems to me that what most people really want is a Fender bass with the image of a Rickenbacker holographically laid over the top of it. [/quote] This is 100% correct - read Stingray, Wal, Warwick etc etc for Ric also. There are many people for whom a Fender P or J are a perfect fit for their playing style and ability who are disappointed when they move to another bass. Funnily those Fenders have their own problems - total dead spots on the G string anyone? I've heard great bass sounds from people playing Rics - though I was never a fan of Chris squire's sound with Yes - always struck me that Roger Waters was trying for a similar clankathon on his P bass at times - would have been much better on a Ric.

[quote name='Urban Bassman' timestamp='1384511496' post='2277480'] I'm lovin' my two recently acquired Bongos - 4 String HH Stealth and a 5 String HH in Tangerine Pearl. They play beautifully, sound immense, are very comfortable to play and I can't fault the build quality. I'm now GAS-ing for a fretless 4 H Piezo.... Wish I'd found out years ago just how good they are! Is there Bongo porn thread? [/quote] There's an Hp CAR Bongo for sale on the EBMM forum for sale thread. There's a Bongo club on Talkbass but not on here I think...........

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1384452189' post='2276929'] Wow, they are doing the rosewood neck option again ? That would be something special. [/quote] And the rosewood neck Reflex with rosewood top!!!! An available option!!

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1384432775' post='2276580'] ... I'm only human. There are temptations I cannot resist. [/quote] Oh yeah!! Slightly off topic but have you seen the blue sparkle SBMM Ray 34 at Andertons - I'm sorely tempted!!!

Although the Gibson Ripper came first I suspect Fender set the scene by introducing natural finishes at the beginning of the 70s - thus Gibson and musicman followed the fashion. Dev70 - if you join the Musicman bass forum you can post your serial number and they'll give you the date it became a bass!! Unless it's a pre EB - in which case the best you can get is to check approx date against others on Musicman.org which is an independent site. Or take the neck off (something I would personally hesitate about doing)

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1383833181' post='2269739'] Yes, ironically enough, that "modern" bass sound has become very dated . To sound contemporary nowadays you would need to use an old P Bass with flats on . I never thought I would see the day, but there you go... [/quote] I don't think it's become dated Dingus. Just that modern pop music tends to mix bass in the background almost like an orchestral approach - and that soft pillowy ampeg and P bass with flats playing root notes in the background can be heard (well just about) quite often. Ironically this was just the sort of thing Jaco allegedly liberated bass players from. I have to say I don't remember the last time I heard a decent bass hook on a modern recording - or perhaps the bass is too quiet ........ Or my ears are shot!! Many famous songs use bass hooks but it now seems such an approach is not as welcome.

There again Marcus Miller used a 77 Jazz which he subsequently modified - and was told he needed to get a pre CBS one at the time but liked a shiny new one better. I like a lot of stuff he's played on as well and it didn't seem to stop him getting sessions........... And he still uses it!! The point being that this old = better tone argument's been around since the 70s and has been rejected by top pros and embraced by others over time. I don't recall many virtuosos using them. I have to say though I like joe osbornes work I had never thought his tone to be anything other than a polite Fender tone - surely this can be had, with appropriate skill, from a run of the mill Fender? That some pros choose to play ancient instruments may be more down to them loving the instruments and having the money and desire to have them - it is also a differentiator from the masses (of regular hobbyist or aspiring musicians) for a band of young and famous musicians to use expensive vintage ones - whereas in the 60s and 70s the use of a real Fender alone was enough.

I'm very comfortable that my favourite bass players got great bass sounds with new or newish instruments eg Nate watts - Sir Duke - Precision not passive but through an Alembic pre amp Nate watts - I Wish - Jazz not passive but through an Alembic pre amp Nate Watts - Do I Do - 79 Stingray Marcus Miller - Tutu - 77 Jazz Boz Burrell - Feel Like Making Love and Can't Get Enough of Your Love - newish Precision fretless?? Pino Palladino - Wherever I Lay My Hat - 79 Stingray fretless Etc etc etc If non vintage basses were good enough for them they're good enough for me!! And a little anecdote - I tried out a 76 Stingray in a shop in London fairly recently - played through a flip top Ampeg it sounded warm but lacking in power and the slap sound wasn't brilliant - maybe the pick up had started to suffer as Dingus said. The icing on the cake....... It didn't work at all above fret 15 - which I found out by playing a Nate Watts bass part!! It was on sale for more than I subsequently paid for my 2010 Classic Ray which sounds every bit as warm and especially recorded especially when using the functional mutes which didn't exist on the 76......... You are right about hearing as well. I play in a couple of bands with very aging rockers. - who claim they can only hear bass - needless to say they play excruciatingly loudly but can't hear the treble. Oh and they use vintage amps which don't project very well........ All of which is why I'm not a vintage guitar lover - fine for anyone who is but I think new instruments (like cars) are equally valid. And few people would drive a classic car day in day out!

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1383592303' post='2266371'] According to the inflation calculator , £252 in 1973 would be £2581 today . In 1989 a new Wal Custom would have cost you £790 full retail price , I know that because I bought one in that year ) . That is the equivalent of £1665 today . I'm not entirely sure what the relevance of that information is to this discussion , but I thought I would throw it in for anyone who is tormented by their desire for a Wal bass in the present . [/quote] Yes please - at that price!!!!! I think the issue is that instrument prices don't generally follow inflation - fashion seems to play a part and reflects to an extent what is fashionable musically at the time. This doesn't account for the boutique prices which I guess Wal could be described as.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1383590513' post='2266332'] ... in Broad Street? ... on Snow Hill? I bought my first Fender at Woodruff's ... in Dale End? [/quote] Yes Snow Hill - how much did the P bass set you back?

Gentlemen you need to be very careful with views on values of instruments. Currently there is a Fender bubble - they are very very popular. This can change with the wind - in the early 80s you could barely give away new or old ones as Dingus mentioned. Some of you will not believe this but it's true! These cycles come and go. But the market for old guitars (and even old music up to a point) is age skewed - and many of those enthusiasts for old instruments are at the very senior end of the age scale. It is entirely possible the bubble may burst - how much or when is anyone's guess. One thing is for sure, they are only worth what people are willing to pay so if the market is saturated with instruments being sold by disinterested relatives, and the number of people wanting to buy them diminishes then the laws of supply and demand will suggest the prices will drop.

In 1973 the pinnacle of my bass desire was a new natural precision with maple board in the window of Yardleys in Birmingham - it was £252 - I was still a teenager and had just started my first proper job and earned 4 times that annually. The price of a new car of an upper spec say the equivalent of a Focus ST was the same as my annual salary. A terraced house would have set you back 4 or 5 times that salary. So the P bass would have been about £5000 against the car value - about £8 to £10K against the house and against an upper starter salary about £4000 in today's money. How much could I sell it for as a mojo d player (cos that's what it would be - did you see the belts we held our flares up with!!!) - say £1500 to £2000? And believe me even back then the old farts were telling us no laddie you need to buy a pre CBS - they're far better!!!! You also have to remember the world went comparatively mad in the mid 70s with soaring inflation following fuel supply issues caused by politics and war. However instrument prices didn't follow that pattern as born out by the Stingray value. As Dingus said, that happened in the 80s and indeed I sold my Stingray for significantly more than I paid for it. New basses are relatively good value and most definitely better specd and built these days......although those prices are nudging upwards again ........