Bringing up the action... time to be a man

[JTUK]

[quote name='urb' post='899457' date='Jul 19 2010, 09:43 PM']Bollocks to it I'm a wuss - I love my action low and light - fighting the bass is a pointless exercise for me. Admitedly my action is very low but it's not as low as some players I know, I think it's all about the end result, ie does it sound good and are you comfortable while playing? Damaging tendons, fingers and wrists to 'be a man' is just silly, so do what feels good and suits you best, not out of some misguided macho attitude.

Just my 0.02 Euros...

M[/quote]


Agree.. I use a light touch and low action for the same reason.. why fight it?
I have never had hand problems over the many years and I believe this helps.
My current basses will both choke if laid flat but then I don't play like this and it isn't a problem on the gig.
I prefer a bit more tension in the strings these days and am thinking about going to 45's but I'll still want that taper over the bridge for the big strings.
I don't have any problem with sound or projection, IMV. If I went lower I think the necks would be more prone to temps etc..and I might need more time for tweaking at gigs. At this time, they come straight out the case, a quick tune and I'm ready.

I'll stay as I am....

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='dood' post='899733' date='Jul 20 2010, 09:29 AM']Jon Shuker set mine with a cigarette paper [/quote]

That's more like it!

I think the problem people have with low action is that you do get the best results with a really light touch. Anybody who is used to playing with a higher action and then dropping the action is going to have problems. You have to adjust your right hand playing style also! I literally feather the the strings with my left hand and the right hand is a very soft touch. My "loud dynamics" may equate to another players "soft dynamics". You have to play appropriate to your action.

[LukeFRC]

I hit the strings pretty hard so it's fairly high. But then i have strong muscley hands so can get away with it. I struggle to play something with super low action.
but if it was good enough for james jamerson.....

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='899789' date='Jul 20 2010, 10:36 AM']I hit the strings pretty hard so it's fairly high. But then i have strong muscley hands so can get away with it. I struggle to play something with super low action.
but if it was good enough for james jamerson.....[/quote]

Indeed. Different strokes for different folks! There's no right or wrong or better or worse... it's just what works for you. There's plenty of guys with great tone with high action and guys with great tone with low action. Conversely, there are plenty of guys with crap tone with high action and crap tone with low action! I guess it's the complete package that counts - the player, the technique, the gear. If you get all three right, bang on!

Edited July 20, 2010 by EBS_freak

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='899775' date='Jul 20 2010, 10:19 AM']I think the problem people have with low action is that you do get the best results with a really light touch. Anybody who is used to playing with a higher action and then dropping the action is going to have problems. You have to adjust your right hand playing style also![/quote]

TBH I adjust how hard I pick depending on where my bass is in the mix - if I feel I'm too loud I play quieter, etc. Most of the time I'm playing reggae-ish bass parts so a light touch is what's needed but it still sounds better with the strings higher. And it means if I turn on an overdrive for a heavy part I can dig in and get a nice crunch out of it and still not have the strings bottoming out.

I think the problem people have with a high action is that they are worried that they won't be able to play fast enough unless the strings are as low as they'll possibly go. In reality it doesn't make a massive difference, and how often do bass players have to play mega-fast anyway?

As for the RSI thing, I think some people are more prone to that than others but I don't feel like I use a lot of pressure to stop notes (practically nothing compared to double bass), and in 20 years I've never had a problem with my wrists.

FWIW I set up my basses so I don't get any fret noise unplugged, and I typically use 100 - 40 or 45 strings. So not mega high, but a fair bit higher than most.

[OldGit]

[quote name='dood' post='899733' date='Jul 20 2010, 09:29 AM']Jon Shuker set mine with a cigarette paper [/quote]

or three





Having had a go on the Doodle I can say that low action suits the bass.

I've taken to stroking a bit gently on one particular gig now and I may move more that way in the future in all my playing. Have to keep the higher action for now though ...

Edited July 20, 2010 by OldGit

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='899797' date='Jul 20 2010, 10:47 AM']TBH I adjust how hard I pick depending on where my bass is in the mix - if I feel I'm too loud I play quieter, etc. Most of the time I'm playing reggae-ish bass parts so a light touch is what's needed but it still sounds better with the strings higher. And it means if I turn on an overdrive for a heavy part I can dig in and get a nice crunch out of it and still not have the strings bottoming out.

I think the problem people have with a high action is that they are worried that they won't be able to play fast enough unless the strings are as low as they'll possibly go. In reality it doesn't make a massive difference, and how often do bass players have to play mega-fast anyway?

As for the RSI thing, I think some people are more prone to that than others but I don't feel like I use a lot of pressure to stop notes (practically nothing compared to double bass), and in 20 years I've never had a problem with my wrists.

FWIW I set up my basses so I don't get any fret noise unplugged, and I typically use 100 - 40 or 45 strings. So not mega high, but a fair bit higher than most.[/quote]

Ha! you beat me to my edit.

Yup, I agree with you in parts... because again, it's all very subjective. For me, I get the reggae tones playing over the top of the neck, using the front pickup, with all the treble rolled off. I can go lighter in dynamics and stronger.. but if I need even more, that's where the amp volume comes in. As for sounding better, again, that's subjective... and somewhat influenced by the instrument that is being played. I guess it comes down to, again in part, having the right instrument for the job.

There is a perceived link between low action and speed... but there are loads of guys I know who can propper rip it up at shred like speed on an action that is what I would call very high. I can't.

[Rich]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='899797' date='Jul 20 2010, 10:47 AM']As for the RSI thing, I think some people are more prone to that than others but I don't feel like I use a lot of pressure to stop notes (practically nothing compared to double bass), and in 20 years I've never had a problem with my wrists.[/quote]
Yeah, I think you're right. Both my wrists have given me problems and I've had surgery on one, but I have a gtrist mate who has been playing longer than me and using computers at work longer than me too, and has never had a single twinge from either hand. Lucky git.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Rich' post='899984' date='Jul 20 2010, 01:33 PM']Yeah, I think you're right. Both my wrists have given me problems and I've had surgery on one, but I have a gtrist mate who has been playing longer than me and using computers at work longer than me too, and has never had a single twinge from either hand. Lucky git.[/quote]

Same here I write code for a living, when I'm not doing that I'm playing bass guitar or double bass, or lifting pints which of course people forget requires a similar movement and is actually good exercise for an upright bassist.

I've never had an issue with my wrists and I haven't actively tried to look after them, I think I must just be lucky in how my wrists are put together.

[JMT3781]

Thanks for all the responses..

I'm kind of interested in anyones stories of how their playing has changed in response to changes in action.. i think we can agree that action is completely personal, and people generally have the action set how it suits them...

[4000]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='899775' date='Jul 20 2010, 10:19 AM']That's more like it!

I think the problem people have with low action is that you do get the best results with a really light touch. Anybody who is used to playing with a higher action and then dropping the action is going to have problems. You have to adjust your right hand playing style also! I literally feather the the strings with my left hand and the right hand is a very soft touch. My "loud dynamics" may equate to another players "soft dynamics". You have to play appropriate to your action.[/quote]

Absolutely +1.

[4000]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='899808' date='Jul 20 2010, 10:57 AM']Ha! you beat me to my edit.

Yup, I agree with you in parts... because again, it's all very subjective. For me, I get the reggae tones playing over the top of the neck, using the front pickup, with all the treble rolled off. I can go lighter in dynamics and stronger.. but if I need even more, that's where the amp volume comes in. As for sounding better, again, that's subjective... and somewhat influenced by the instrument that is being played. I guess it comes down to, again in part, having the right instrument for the job.

There is a perceived link between low action and speed... but there are loads of guys I know who can propper rip it up at shred like speed on an action that is what I would call very high. I can't.[/quote]

And +1 again.....

One thing I will say is I find I get [i]better[/i] tone with lower action. I sound awful once I start raising it (which I try once in a while). Again, it's all about the way you play, the sound you're after etc etc.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='JMT3781' post='900298' date='Jul 20 2010, 05:47 PM']i think we can agree that action is completely personal, and people generally have the action set how it suits them...[/quote]

And Rich is limp wristed, don't forget that important revelation.

[urb]

Here's the last word on all aspects of playing with a light touch from Gary Willis, it might not be for everyone but this guy sure knows what's what when it comes to refined fingerstyle technique:



Loads of stuff to work on there then!

M

[thisnameistaken]

For a professional entertainer that man is remarkably boring. I actually like his playing too, but my god I never want to listen to him speak ever again.

Nice to see that men were inexplicably wearing hats indoors even back in the '80s though.

Edited July 20, 2010 by thisnameistaken

[Pete Academy]

I like a low action.

I once knew someone who met Jaco and had a go of his bass. He said the action was really high.

BTW, did anyone who tried Victor's bass at the DV clinic notice what the action was like on his Fodera? I would imagine it was low for him to do the tapping.

[JMT3781]

[quote name='JMT3781' post='900298' date='Jul 20 2010, 05:47 PM']Thanks for all the responses..

I'm kind of interested in anyones stories of how their playing has changed in response to changes in action.. i think we can agree that action is completely personal, and people generally have the action set how it suits them...[/quote]

Ignored i consider this thread hijacked lol

[thisnameistaken]

TBH I think my action has changed in response to my playing, not the other way around.

I don't often play "loaner" basses, the only time I can remember playing a bass that wasn't my own was at a jam night where some friends made me get up and bash through a tune with them. It was a dirty old JapCrap precision and I broke the A string within about a minute. I felt really guilty but luckily they had spares, and I've never borrowed a bass since!

[endorka]

[quote name='JMT3781' post='900298' date='Jul 20 2010, 05:47 PM']I'm kind of interested in anyones stories of how their playing has changed in response to changes in action.. i think we can agree that action is completely personal, and people generally have the action set how it suits them...[/quote]

Ok here it is.

A couple of weeks ago I did a recording session where I was given time to audition all six of my bass guitars to work out which had the most appropriate sound for the track. There was also time to try various tones and playing techniques, as well as experimenting with different basslines.

Luxury!

My most played bass guitar at that time was a P-Bass clone, with high action, that I love to play. My default, especially since taking up double bass, was to play pretty hard, which does get a great tone for many kinds of music. However, it turned out that the best sounding guitar for the track was my Peavey Grind 6 (retrofitted with EMG CS pickups).

To cut a long story short, I hadn't used this bass in anger for some time, and it was setup with lower action than I was used to. When we recorded the track, the attack on the notes was too aggressive - when examined in Protools, it was exactly as Gary Willis describes in that video. It was suggested that the level of bass in the monitor mix be increased to make it easier for me to play with a softer touch, and I did just that, again the notes were as described by GW - the sustain was pretty much level with the attack. It was a great tone, fat and a bit synth like.

We played a couple of concerts a few days after that session, I used the low action Peavey bass on some of the songs by special request of the rest of the band (the rest were played on double bass). Since then I've grown to really enjoy the bass again, and indeed am becoming more convinced by the lighter touch/low action.

In retrospect, I think what put me off this approach for years was the tone that advocates of it often have. It's the jazz/fusion elevator musak "muso" tone, you know the one; insipid and sounds like they are playing underwater. But I'm now guessing that it is something else they do that contributes this tone, rather than lighter playing.

Jennifer

[urb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='900378' date='Jul 20 2010, 07:21 PM']For a professional entertainer that man is remarkably boring. I actually like his playing too, but my god I never want to listen to him speak ever again.

Nice to see that men were inexplicably wearing hats indoors even back in the '80s though.[/quote]

For the record Gary Willis has publicly denounced this video as awful and hated making it - hates the end result and wishes it would dissappear forever - unfortunately there's some very good advice and demos on it... Gary has also said the director hated him and made it very hard to do the video the way he wanted - hence the very stilted presentational style - Gary is a monster bassist and quite possibly one of the most influential bassists alive today IMHO - there are tons of clips of him on Youtube that are much more entertaining that this one

[BassJase]

I really liked the vid snatch Urb put on, I think GW talks a lot of sense in it.

But I do think what a lot of people are missing is dynamics. Having a lower or higher action doesn't means dynamics, thats down to the volume on your amp and the way you play.
My basses have been called "unplayable" by other pluckers, but if you play with the desired touch there shoud be no loss in clarity, response or volume.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='BassJase' post='900509' date='Jul 20 2010, 09:39 PM']But I do think what a lot of people are missing is dynamics. Having a lower or higher action doesn't means dynamics, thats down to the volume on your amp and the way you play.[/quote]

In virtuoso bass guitarist terms, "dynamics" often seems to be a synonym for melodrama. Soft playing with loud, over-picked, twangy passages bulleted through it most of the time. Vic Wooten and Marcus Miller are especially guilty of this. Orchestral players are much more aware of how to work that stuff.

Recently we've been working on a song where I play with a pick for a change, there are a couple of bars in the verse where me and the drummer build up subtly over half a bar to a loud beat 1, then drop away again to let the vocal through, the effect is very obvious and dramatic but what we're actually doing is subtle enough to not even get noticed. We had a guitarist from another band ask us what effect we were using for it last week.

[risingson]

Dynamics can't be applied like orchestral players so readily on an electric instrument, the beauty of a bowed instrument like a violin or a cello is that intensity and velocity can be controlled a lot easier... also the formal training of orchestral players allows them to be more adept at having dynamic control. Bass and guitar should be no different but the control over volume relies more on the players ability to manipulate their right hand... palm muting for example, and using your thumb to pluck instead of your index finger in order to alter attack.

The reason I like higher action is because of reduced string noise against the frets, and my ability to sound single notes with more articulation and control, to whatever tempo I'm playing at. I've found myself playing with a pick also recently, with varying degrees of palm muting and ghost notes and I think higher action helps me control my sound a lot better in this aspect.

[matski]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='899471' date='Jul 19 2010, 09:54 PM']....the string needs room to do its thing....[/quote]

Nice!

[M4L666]

I play with a high low action, as it were. It's low, but I can control whether I get clank or not through the way I hit the string, mellower sounds are more pull and release, where as heavier (death metal) sounds are achieved by a more lever-like motion through the string down into the bass.