How long do you dwell on a practise exercise?

[Oscar South]

I used to spend a long time and return often to my old practise routines and exercises, I noticed this last year or so that while my confidence and feel were improving from gigging regularly and learning lots of songs, I wasn't developing much from my daily routine. I've tried a new approach recently alongside basica scale and arpeggio upkeep based on that and a quote I heard or read once; I have no idea who from so it could be someone on here: "practise should be hard, playing should be easy" (ie you should constantly push yourself out of your comfort zone in practise, so that you have a large amount of headroom technically and mentally when playing).

I got a few jazz bass and all purpose jazz etude books and I'm just progressively working through the exercises in those, once I've completed an exercise to a satisfactory standard I'll run it one more time then move on to the next and not revisit it. Its a lot more mentally engaging.. you won't be listening to the radio or watching TV while you practise (but you shouldn't be anyway). So far its not only jump started my progress but also given me a lot of new ideas of how to approach things while playing and broken my out of some old habits. I imagine that this is a transitional phase and I'll settle into a new routine which is a mix of revisiting and refining and covering new ground.

Anyway, I'm wondering what other peoples approaches to practise are in regards to this, I'd be interrested to hear about your own routines and mindsets on this subject.

Oscar.

[Mog]

Hi Oscar.I used to be a real strict practice nut but lately I'm finding it hard to fit it in between uni commitments and practicing with the band. My routine used to be 1 hour of scale and dexterity work followed by an hour or so of jamming along to albums. I also used to spend a lot of time improvising over backing tracks. I feel that the improv exercises really helped forge a personal style. It also broadened my musical palette as I started playing over as many styles as I could. I agree that its important to push yourself when practicing. We should all try and play to our full potential and not settle for merely being able to hold our own with other musicians.If a bandmate or fellow musician sets a high standard we owe it to ourselves and them to at least try and play to the same level of competence.

[BigRedX]

TBH I don't think I've ever practised a scale in my life.

Practice for me means working out basslines for new songs (by listening to the original recording for covers or by working out the line I can hear in my head for originals) and making sure that I can still play all the other songs in the set from memory.

If there's something new that I don't have the dexterity to play yet I find the best way is 10-15 minutes every day for a week or so generally gets my fingers doing the right thing.

[nig]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='683997' date='Dec 14 2009, 02:01 PM']TBH I don't think I've ever practised a scale in my life.

Practice for me means working out basslines for new songs (by listening to the original recording for covers or by working out the line I can hear in my head for originals) and making sure that I can still play all the other songs in the set from memory.

If there's something new that I don't have the dexterity to play yet I find the best way is 10-15 minutes every day for a week or so generally gets my fingers doing the right thing.[/quote]
Phew, thought it was just me, however I did have all my scales and arpeggios knocked into me as a kid.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='683944' date='Dec 14 2009, 01:25 PM']I got a few jazz bass and all purpose jazz etude books and I'm just progressively working through the exercises in those, once I've completed an exercise to a satisfactory standard I'll run it one more time then move on to the next and not revisit it.[/quote]

I don't quite get this bit. If you are only playing the exercise to a 'satisfactory' standard,it means there is
still room for improvement-as far as I'm concerned. It is better to revisit your material and try to improve
on it.
As far as my practice is concerned,a large part consists of playing harmonically and melodically over
changes-usually with a looper. If there is something that I try to play and mess up,I know what I need to work on,
so I then begin to break it all down-both technically or harmonically. I still revisit all of my old scale and arpeggio
exercises(and take them further),and I still break out the books regularly just to refresh things that may have been pushed aside.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Doddy

[Oscar South]

[quote name='Doddy' post='684007' date='Dec 14 2009, 02:10 PM']I don't quite get this bit. If you are only playing the exercise to a 'satisfactory' standard,it means there is
still room for improvement-as far as I'm concerned. It is better to revisit your material and try to improve
on it.[/quote]

Depends on your personal interpretation of 'satisfactory', to me to be satisfied with something in regards to practise routine is to be able to play it through to the level that I'm sure I could reliably do it in public. Perfection is an impossible target, I believe myself that you reach a point where you can gain more from moving onto new ground than you can by lingering in comfortable territory. You could theoretically improve on anything indefinately, you have to use your personal judgement to know when to draw a line.

This is very much an experiment though, I'm sure the line will move dynamically based on experience, context and necessity.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Oscar South

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='683997' date='Dec 14 2009, 02:01 PM']TBH I don't think I've ever practised a scale in my life.

Practice for me means working out basslines for new songs (by listening to the original recording for covers or by working out the line I can hear in my head for originals) and making sure that I can still play all the other songs in the set from memory.

If there's something new that I don't have the dexterity to play yet I find the best way is 10-15 minutes every day for a week or so generally gets my fingers doing the right thing.[/quote]


+1 on this

When i started playing covers i found the best way to improve was to simply learn everything by ear. I enjoyed working out fingering positions and progressions for myself, after a while you get in that zone where you can pick things up really quickly and you know what's coming next.

Of course it helps if you're digging the music you're learning. Having that hunger to play really top tunes and basslines is a great incentive to play to your best and enjoy it. We started doing some really good songs this year and for the first time in ages a band practice was something i really looked forward to, mainly cos i got to bust out "Sir Duke" and "Under Pressure"!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='684017' date='Dec 14 2009, 02:17 PM']Depends on your personal interpretation of 'satisfactory', to me to be satisfied with something in regards to practise routine is to be able to play it through to the level that I'm sure I could reliably do it in public. Perfection is an impossible target, I believe myself that you reach a point where you can gain more from moving onto new ground than you can by lingering in comfortable territory. You could theoretically improve on anything indefinately, you have to use your personal judgement to know when to draw a line.

This is very much an experiment though, I'm sure the line will move dynamically based on experience, context and necessity.[/quote]

You're right in that you shouldn't linger in comfortable territory,but you should revisit these execises so as to retain and refresh
the information.
For me, I might be working on something and be happy and comfortable with,but I will still revisit the exercise over time
so that it solidifies the information,and becomes part of my vocabulary.
I don't believe that satisfactory is really a good enough level to aim for (speaking for myself-I don't know about anyone else).
It is kind of like saying 'That'll do',which means I can play it better.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Doddy

[mrcrow]

i practice the usual scale mode and arpeggio...riffs and motifs

but in a playing situation i dont really get a chance to air them...just some turnarounds and outros

[foal30]

practice and public performance are two different things
but you can't do one without the other

I reckon I bought Slutsky Jamerson book in 1992
I still practice from this

also practice music not scales
but a scale can be musical
so you need to practice why it can be

the older I get the more I enjoy practicing. I especially like you can hear your a "better" player but paradoxically there is a lot more to do You practice more to learn your shortcomings or gaps in ya knowledge

everyday practice is
reading...look at any old sheet music and have a go
Jazz ... put a standard up with a playalong and have a go
ears... either interval recognition/transcription/singing
work... whatever specific requirements are needed for upcoming Bass jobs.

I don't practice technique, I practice music. To make it sound "right" or "better" I might address or be more conscious of left hand muting... but it's Music first, everything else 7th.

[jakenewmanbass]

I'm going to add a slightly contrary view here, just cos I want to air this view. I'm not especially attached to my thoughts on this but will posit anyway...
I don't go with the idea of playalongs at all, as a bass player I think it's really important to create a very strong sense of the changes whether you be using closely related harmomic structure or otherwise. Even when tearing it up both harmonically and rhythmically I think it should be clear (at least to you) how, what you are playing relates to the sequence over which you are playing.
I do my best (upright especially ) solos either unaccompanied, or very sympathetically comped by a good pianist and drummer. And honestly with the exception of the really great soloists I find that the typical bass solo played by many guys I've heard just blowing through practise routines and scale/arpeggio things stultifyingly boring. I want to hear real music, properly conceived melody, thought and emotion, and honestly I think the very last place in music those elements will be found is in a playalong. It takes the responsibility of making the changes or carrying melody and form away and in my experience gives rise to all manner of fret w***ery. A naturally ,great musician will of course use a playalong to great effect and not suffer the consequences, as his or her greatness will preclude the inherent tendencies to fret w***. A lesser musician (who might otherwise achieve greatness through hard work and I've seen that happen with my own eyes) may well flounder on the rocks of playalongs endlessly banging out formulaic, ill conceived ideas as their freedom of expression is limited to the sterility of a mechanical, single strata, looped harmonic progression...

Now I've spilled that bit of bile, what do the rest of you think?...
am I mad...?

[foal30]

a playalong is a sympathetic piano and drums
I do not think it is mechanical and as for looped, it should be because you are learning "those changes"
I'm of the opinion it's far less likely to cause the described fret w***ery
agreed most bass solos are terrible

a playalong is a great tool to make real music, far preferable to a drum machine or even worse a metronome. It's good for your ears too, you hear "proper" chords. A lesser musician will always bang out formulaic, ill conceived ideas if that is the limit of their imagination. Unless you can afford to hire a pianist and drummer for your practice time I'm not sure how the beginner/intermediate player is supposed to be able to "hear" the tune(s).

I don't think your mad. aside form the unaccompanied solos bit
different people use different tools different way.
I know some people who swear by grip-masters and TAB so it's clear it's horses for courses eh

[Sarah5string]

I never used to practice other than playing songs I already knew. But, I always felt crap as I wanted to practice more, I was just stuck in one of those'ruts' with no motivation. To get out of this I've started lessons and I'm now back to practicing every day, even if it's only for 10 mins.

[chris_b]

These days my fingers generally know where they have to go without being told! But, I practise what ever I need to play until I can play it, be it scales, riffs, Steely Dan, Ann Peebles or T Rex numbers.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='684786' date='Dec 15 2009, 02:12 AM']I'm going to add a slightly contrary view here, just cos I want to air this view. I'm not especially attached to my thoughts on this but will posit anyway...
I don't go with the idea of playalongs at all, as a bass player I think it's really important to create a very strong sense of the changes whether you be using closely related harmomic structure or otherwise. Even when tearing it up both harmonically and rhythmically I think it should be clear (at least to you) how, what you are playing relates to the sequence over which you are playing.
I do my best (upright especially ) solos either unaccompanied, or very sympathetically comped by a good pianist and drummer. And honestly with the exception of the really great soloists I find that the typical bass solo played by many guys I've heard just blowing through practise routines and scale/arpeggio things stultifyingly boring. I want to hear real music, properly conceived melody, thought and emotion, and honestly I think the very last place in music those elements will be found is in a playalong. It takes the responsibility of making the changes or carrying melody and form away and in my experience gives rise to all manner of fret w***ery. A naturally ,great musician will of course use a playalong to great effect and not suffer the consequences, as his or her greatness will preclude the inherent tendencies to fret w***. A lesser musician (who might otherwise achieve greatness through hard work and I've seen that happen with my own eyes) may well flounder on the rocks of playalongs endlessly banging out formulaic, ill conceived ideas as their freedom of expression is limited to the sterility of a mechanical, single strata, looped harmonic progression...

Now I've spilled that bit of bile, what do the rest of you think?...
am I mad...?[/quote]
Jake - I agree with your sentiments here. Playalongs are limited in their usefullness. I have a couple of Aebersold Jazz Playalongs, and have enjoyed using them briefly, to practice high register soloing on BG over the pno/bs/drs. But I soon tire of them. By their nature they are inflexible - unlike the real thing. By their nature, they are the same every time - unlike the real thing. And by their nature, they don't respond or react to your ideas - unlike the real thing.
However, for someone new to improvising, I would never try to stop them using them as a tool for practice purposes. But I would always warn against getting too reliant on them. Good starting point - now move on.

My method for practice is always the same:
scales, arpeggios, tricks riffs and licks to start with for as long as it takes to get properly warmed up. Then i start to develop new ideas, searching for that illusive thing called creativity. Often nothing new comes, but on the occasions when it does its like a light bulb going on. PING !

The Major

[Marvin]

I've never practised enough which is why my playing is so bad. I haven't touched my bass for best part of 2 weeks due to work and now the wife is ill I'm doing all the housework etc.

These playalong tracks what and where do you get them?

[Faithless]

I have a practising list, I take ~4hours of '[i]must to do' [/i]practice everyday - scales, improvisation/reading, blues/changes studies, technique, EUB, and piano.

Harmony,transcribing tunes - if I have any more time and dedication, I spend more time on this.

The thing that bothers me at the moment, is [i]using metronome at practice [/i]- how to set it, when learning scales, or when reading, learning technique and stuff..

Anyone could share their knowledge on this, Jake, Doddy, Major-Minor?

I'd be so grateful.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Faithless

[Doddy]

The only time I have ever used a metronome during my practise is when
I set it to click on 2 and 4 and play along. It kind of works as a substitute
for a drummer.
I've never practised anything like scales or reading with a metronome. I
generally practise new exercises out of time,so that I can break everything
down without worrying about the time. This is where I totally seperate
practice with performing.
I feel that it doesn't matter about making mistakes,or playing out of time when you
are learning something new.The important thing,for me,is to work on these problems
and fix them. I also don't try and play what I have recently learned on a gig.
Eventually it will become part of my vocabulary and will come out in my playing,but
I never try and force it.

[Faithless]

That was interesting, Doddy, thanks a lot

Anyone else, Jake, Major-Minor?

To be honest, I'm especially interested in our pro musos' opinions on using metronome, that's why I'm calling these names..

But, of course, if anyone else has anything to share about this, please, feel free

Oscar, I hope, we're not going OT, mate..

[Wil]

My idea of dexterity practice is whacking Super Mario World in the Snes with a pot of coffee next to me. Works a treat!

[Oscar South]

[quote name='Wil' post='687518' date='Dec 17 2009, 05:11 PM']My idea of dexterity practice is whacking Super Mario World in the Snes with a pot of coffee next to me. Works a treat! [/quote]

lol.

Quote thats done me well:
"dexterity is innate, speed comes from precision"

Edited December 17, 2009 by Oscar South

[danny-79]

Easyer said than done but .... how do i put this .... i try not to get to stressed/ angry with myself for not being able to get somthing right, cause then all the nasty little cogs in your head start turning an BOOM the mood is blown an you cant hear the sound in your head cause your blind by the $%^&*&^%$£$%^&* going through your head of what should be happing but isnt happing ....
take a break !! less is more !! an all that s**t ...

dont no if that made any sence, was talking to myself mainly i think... hence typing here an not practicing over there .....

[Marvin]

[quote name='danny-79' post='687563' date='Dec 17 2009, 06:02 PM']Easyer said than done but .... how do i put this .... i try not to get to stressed/ angry with myself for not being able to get somthing right, cause then all the nasty little cogs in your head start turning an BOOM the mood is blown an you cant hear the sound in your head cause your blind by the $%^&*&^%$£$%^&* going through your head of what should be happing but isnt happing ....
take a break !! less is more !! an all that s**t ...

dont no if that made any sence, was talking to myself mainly i think... hence typing here an not practicing over there ..... [/quote]

makes perfect sense mate. Glad I'm not the only one.