How loud do you need?

[KingPrawn]

This may indeed sound very stupid, but it has never stopped me before. Is there a calculation for working out how loud your rig needs to be. eg style of music x venue X punters = Watts. Again i apologise for daft questions , but is is better to buy for example an ampeg head that is 450w or a lesser head that is 900w. Does the quality of build come into it?

[alexclaber]

The amount and quality of speakers you use will have far more bearing on your loudness than the number of watts your amp is rated at. The loudness you'll need depends hugely on your bandmates - moronic guitarists could literally increase your power needs tenfold (which will only double your loudness). Poor tonal choices and technique on your own part can also eat power. Volume wars are bad! Play together.

Alex

[KingPrawn]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='590126' date='Sep 4 2009, 08:21 PM']The amount and quality of speakers you use will have far more bearing on your loudness than the number of watts your amp is rated at. The loudness you'll need depends hugely on your bandmates - moronic guitarists could literally increase your power needs tenfold (which will only double your loudness). Poor tonal choices and technique on your own part can also eat power. Volume wars are bad! Play together.

Alex[/quote]

Thanks Alex. i take your point about playing together. However can you elaborate on the speaker quality to head ratio.

sean

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='KingPrawn' post='590120' date='Sep 4 2009, 03:17 PM']This may indeed sound very stupid, but it has never stopped me before. Is there a calculation for working out how loud your rig needs to be. eg style of music x venue X punters = Watts. Again i apologise for daft questions , but is is better to buy for example an ampeg head that is 450w or a lesser head that is 900w. Does the quality of build come into it?[/quote]
No, for three reasons. First, watts and sound levels aren't directly related. Second, all else being equal twice the power only results in a 3dB increase in sound level, and that's just above the threshold of audibility. Third, and most important, your rig only needs to be loud enough to cover the stage. It's the job of the PA to cover the room. If you're trying to handle much more than a hundred seats or so without PA support you're probably going to sound bad and have stage levels loud enough to endanger your hearing.

[Mr. Foxen]

Course, not everywhere has a PA, and much more often, the PA can't cope with bass. Not sure if America is like those places in Europe where you can get a grant and everywhere has great PA systems, but this idea that the PA will do it all seems to be fantasy in practice. Caricatures played 1 venue where the pa was worth putting bass through. Unless you are playing the sort of gigs you actually get paid for, you need a rig people in front of you can hear. You can do a surprising amount with not very much. But you can't do Doom.

[chris_b]

[quote name='KingPrawn' post='590120' date='Sep 4 2009, 08:17 PM']....Is there a calculation for working out how loud your rig needs to be. eg style of music x venue X punters = Watts. Again i apologise for daft questions , but is is better to buy for example an ampeg head that is 450w or a lesser head that is 900w. Does the quality of build come into it?....[/quote]
I play a variety of styles from loud bands to quiet duos and I know a few other players who do the same. Nearly all the amps we've brought are around the 500 watt mark. Your cab(s) need to cover that volume with some to spare, but, whether you use 10's, 12's, or 15's depends on you and your sound and style.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='590205' date='Sep 4 2009, 05:24 PM']Course, not everywhere has a PA, and much more often, the PA can't cope with bass. Not sure if America is like those places in Europe where you can get a grant and everywhere has great PA systems, but this idea that the PA will do it all seems to be fantasy in practice.[/quote]
The situation here is that toilet gigs that pay crap expect you to supply your own PA, and if you don't have one you don't work. Which makes sense, if they had the money to pay well they'd have the money to install a PA. Good gigs pay well and provide PA. The better the gig, the better the PA. Either way, if you're going to sound good you need a good PA, either the house's or your own.

[thumperbob 2002]

I am in a 7 piece soul / funk band and whilst we have a good compact pa- 1100w we use that mainly for vox, a little keys and brass- maybe the kick drum.

evrything else is coming straight from the backline- you can get a good sound in like 100-200 audience numbers. It just takes time- and you dont have the control you would with a sound man-I have used loads of different bass rigs and think you need at least 300W with a good cab - at present I have 2 rigs- Markbass LM11 and Schroeder 1212L- you dont need anymore than this!! My other rig is a Marshall VBA 400 and Scroeder 1212L and 1515L- pure overkill!!

cheers

Bob

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='590126' date='Sep 4 2009, 08:21 PM']Volume wars are bad! Play together.[/quote]

Could I give you the number of my guitarist? Been trying to explain that for the last two years!

Edited September 5, 2009 by stingrayfan

[EssentialTension]

A freakish event:

End of the first song, first set. Guitarist says to me 'You are extremely loud'. I say 'Shall I turn down?'. Guitarist says 'No, it sounds great'.

Edited September 5, 2009 by EssentialTension

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='590354' date='Sep 5 2009, 04:03 AM']The situation here is that toilet gigs that pay crap expect you to supply your own PA, and if you don't have one you don't work. Which makes sense, if they had the money to pay well they'd have the money to install a PA. Good gigs pay well and provide PA. The better the gig, the better the PA. Either way, if you're going to sound good you need a good PA, either the house's or your own.[/quote]

Scene I've played (originals, not for the pay) is promoters hire the venues to put bands on, someotimes they get the PA in, more often than not promoters are fairly clueless on the technical side and get a unsuitable PA, or the house one that is just tops for vocals. Its a night out with some expense covered, a stage is a luxury, not usual to be standing amogst the audience, the sound does what its supposed to, balance monitoring by wandering about and adjusting earplugs, just as the audience has the option to. Maybe in new band the vocalist will buy a PA and listen to guidance, but in support slots, not likely to be using it. Guitarist had been gigging since he was 16, hundreds of gigs, always maintained having a backline that can be heard is the only way to ensure you'd be heard. Course, he generally plays offstage to avoid being in front of his stack.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='590420' date='Sep 5 2009, 09:49 AM']Could I give you the number of my guitarist? Been trying to explain that for the last two years![/quote]

..... and my drummer!

[charic]

Ive played a gig to about 50+ people with my 300w line6... Overkill had it up about halfway in the end but sounded great

Ive also played to about 300 people through my old ashdown 30w perfect 10, mic'd and through PA. Sounded absolutely brilliant, punchy as hell!

[Guest MoJo]

Recently played a pub gig through my backline only (see sig below). Loud as hell. Many punters commented on how loud it was, I asked "Should I turn it down?" they said "hell NO! It sounds great" An old friend of mine said he could feel it thumping in his chest making him feel sick Ear protection on stage and you're good to go.

Played the following night to 200+ guests at a wedding near Coventry, again ... backline only (guitar, keys, vox and drums through PA) , sounded great out front

Edited September 5, 2009 by bassman2790

[scottReederstoenail]

Im having this at the moment.Wondering what the best way to go is regards to gigging if i ever do.
In my main band our bassist has a 300W head and a 1 b 16 and 4 b 10 cabs.He s only ever used the 16 cab for gigs and only ever goes up to about three on his volume and thats plenty loud enough.Baring in mind we play Grungey rock and the drummer is loud as f***(me)I think a 300W combo will do me then i can get an extra cab if i ever need too.

[Dr.Dave]

Wasn't there a saying about adding up the 'watts' of all the guitarists in the band , adding 100 w for the drummer , then doubling it and that's the number of watts you should use???

Bit outdated now , I think. The SPL coming off your rig is the important thing.

I can tell you what I need. I work with a fairly loud drummer and a guitarist with 50w of valve boogie. I want a rig that copes with that on stage without turning it up past halfway BUT I don't want to grow an instant 3rd bollock and I don't have a tame gorilla to carry my kit.

On bigger stages I change that not a jot - I just make sure I have monitoring that copes. Why try and fill a huge stage with your backline?

In my case it equates to a 280w head driving 2 not particularly efficient - but reasonably portable - cabs.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dr.Dave' post='590754' date='Sep 5 2009, 03:55 PM']Wasn't there a saying about adding up the 'watts' of all the guitarists in the band , adding 100 w for the drummer , then doubling it and that's the number of watts you should use???[/quote]

Phew, glad I don't play in a Lynyrd Skynyrd tribute band!

[scottReederstoenail]

Or Maiden!!!!!!

[JPJ]

I used to think 500w was ample then 750w seemed comfortable but now I find that I really needed 1500w all along!

Do you think I may be going deaf!

[scottReederstoenail]

1500W of bassage?That could shift the planet off its axis!

[Mr. Foxen]

Lots of power isn't just about volume, its also about bottom end. In the classic days people weren't trying to push a low B, or A, or F# through bass rigs. Detuning and people expecting nad rattling subs is a fairly major cause of the increase in needed power.

[chris_pokkuri]

[quote name='KingPrawn' post='590120' date='Sep 4 2009, 08:17 PM']This may indeed sound very stupid, but it has never stopped me before. Is there a calculation for working out how loud your rig needs to be. eg style of music x venue X punters = Watts. Again i apologise for daft questions , but is is better to buy for example an ampeg head that is 450w or a lesser head that is 900w. Does the quality of build come into it?[/quote]

The OP sounds like you are asking what you need without the support of a PA. If playing with a full band (in my case 2 guitarists, loud drummer and myself) i'd say a minimum of 500w. Though when I used that I was still often struggling a bit, but like you we rarely have full PA support- its normally just for the vocals.
So.. I went for a Hartke LH1000 this time (I think its actually something like 750/800w though cos I play it bridged through a Big One which is 8 ohms). Only now do I feel that i have enough power with an efficient enough speaker to provide the volume and lows i need for most gigs i'll play.

When/if it comes to the time i'll need more volume i'll probably get another Big One and run them parallel in a stack. Cant wait! ... maybe i'll do that anyway...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_pokkuri' post='591084' date='Sep 5 2009, 06:15 PM']If playing with a full band (in my case 2 guitarists, loud drummer and myself) i'd say a minimum of 500w.[/quote]
There are far too many variables in the equation to make a blanket statement of how much power is required. I run one channel of a Superfly into an 8 ohm 1x10 or 1x12, depending on my mood. That's only 160 watts, and I'm never wanting for more. My cabs aren't exactly off the shelf, but that's part and parcel of the variables involved. With the right cab you don't need much power, while with some (Basson, for example) you're hard pressed to ever have enough. And where output levels are concerned far more often than not power isn't the problem, inadequate/insufficient speakers to make full use of the power you have is.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='591137' date='Sep 6 2009, 12:49 AM']There are far too many variables in the equation to make a blanket statement of how much power is required. I run one channel of a Superfly into an 8 ohm 1x10 or 1x12, depending on my mood. That's only 160 watts, and I'm never wanting for more.[/quote]

Got a band myspace or something? Can't really google you name, since you are a fairly commonly mentioned dude alongside the word 'band'.

[Monz]

Well I am only using 200W ish and the two gigs I have done with it (one of them was quite a loud one) only had me turning the volume to halfway without the gain turned up at all so I'm guessing 100 to 150W if that. That was using a single 4x10 without porting

Did make me smile a lot though