Veils Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 When I asked Jon to build my bass, I told him that I wanted pretty hot output. What I have now in my bass is absolutely searing and I am sometimes finding it causes complications at gigs. I don't always use my own rig and a lot of amps just cannot cope with it and fart like mad at low levels. I don't want my bass being tamed at all as when I have the right gig setup it sounds absolutely amazing, but what would be the best way of controlling it at gigs when it is necessary? I am finding a lot of the time I have to turn my volume down on my bass which compromises my sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 [quote name='Veils' post='541149' date='Jul 15 2009, 11:43 AM']When I asked Jon to build my bass, I told him that I wanted pretty hot output. What I have now in my bass is absolutely searing and I am sometimes finding it causes complications at gigs. I don't always use my own rig and a lot of amps just cannot cope with it and fart like mad at low levels. I don't want my bass being tamed at all as when I have the right gig setup it sounds absolutely amazing, but what would be the best way of controlling it at gigs when it is necessary? I am finding a lot of the time I have to turn my volume down on my bass which compromises my sound [/quote] A Sansamp or similar device in your signal chain will allow you to cut the volume before you send it to the amp. S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 [quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='541151' date='Jul 15 2009, 11:45 AM']A Sansamp or similar device in your signal chain will allow you to cut the volume before you send it to the amp. S.P.[/quote] Sansamps dont really like hot active inputs. if the outputs that hot then it could distort a lot of buffer units. Is there a small trim pot or similar inside the control cavity that you can use to crank the output down a notch? too much output gain isnt a good thing as youre finding, its hard to tame without causing problems further down the signal chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veils Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 I believe there is a trim pot. I was wondering would there be a way of sticking something in the chain which I could selectively use if needs be i.e. sansamp. I have used a sansamp with my Shuker before and it didn't like it much. I am also a little worried that if I knock the output gain of my bass down it is going to dull my sound a tad. As I mentioned, when I have a setup which can cope it sounds absolutely amazing and I wouldn't wanna compromise that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbyrne Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about this, but my MXR-80+ has two channels, and the output from my Hohner B V/Bardens/John East is pretty hot, but the MXR handles it pretty well. Being that it has two channels, you can set one hot and one lower. ? G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBobTTD Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 [quote name='Spartacus' post='541157' date='Jul 15 2009, 12:53 PM']Sansamps dont really like hot active inputs. [...][/quote] Damn, that's not really what I want to hear as I have a hot bass and a Sansamp on its way here. Would the MXR M-80 act in a similar way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) Try one of these: [url="http://www.ehx.com/products/signal-pad"]http://www.ehx.com/products/signal-pad[/url] Should be no issues with overloading or clipping it becuase it's totally passive (the 9v socket is just for the LED I think). BUT... using this would have the same effect as just turning down the volume on your bass, so you may as well just use that instead! Most 9v pedals clip when you bang the E string as hard as you can into em with a hot bass, but it's not usually that noticeable, especially through a bass amp. Edited July 15, 2009 by dannybuoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 [quote name='Veils' post='541149' date='Jul 15 2009, 11:43 AM']When I asked Jon to build my bass, I told him that I wanted pretty hot output. What I have now in my bass is absolutely searing and I am sometimes finding it causes complications at gigs. I don't always use my own rig and a lot of amps just cannot cope with it and fart like mad at low levels. I don't want my bass being tamed at all as when I have the right gig setup it sounds absolutely amazing, but what would be the best way of controlling it at gigs when it is necessary? I am finding a lot of the time I have to turn my volume down on my bass which compromises my sound [/quote] It may be that I am missing something obvious, but is this not what the gain control is for? For each of my instruments, and some are indeed "searing", while playing them as loud as they will ever go, I turn the gain on the amp up from zero until it starts clipping, then turn it down very slowly until it stops clipping. My amp helpfully has a light to indicate when the preamp is clipping, but in the absence of this you can use your ears to listen for distortion. Doing this process means the signal from the bass is normalised with respect to further amplification stages, which simplifies setup considerably. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedontcarebear Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [quote name='endorka' post='541807' date='Jul 15 2009, 11:29 PM']It may be that I am missing something obvious, but is this not what the gain control is for? For each of my instruments, and some are indeed "searing", while playing them as loud as they will ever go, I turn the gain on the amp up from zero until it starts clipping, then turn it down very slowly until it stops clipping. My amp helpfully has a light to indicate when the preamp is clipping, but in the absence of this you can use your ears to listen for distortion. Doing this process means the signal from the bass is normalised with respect to further amplification stages, which simplifies setup considerably. Jennifer[/quote] Not all amps have that though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Most amps have some sort of gain control or input pad though dont they? Dont know how Veils preamp works but if its didtorting that many input stages its too high IMO. If turnng down the bass volume knobs 'compromises his sound' then maybe look at an East EQ system as their volume controls are more like mixer input strips and atenaute the signal evenly without losing anything. if theres a trimpot for internal preamp gain id adjust that to a reasonable level then use an extrenal [b]boost[/b] pedals if needed for extra kick, thats got to be better than having your bass distorting inputs all over the place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [quote name='thedontcarebear' post='541913' date='Jul 16 2009, 08:29 AM']Not all amps have that though![/quote] Every amp I've used has had a gain control, and I've played through some dodgy amps, believe me! Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedontcarebear Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Okay, well clearly, I was lying, all amps have gain controls, and Michael Jackson didn't touch kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [quote name='endorka' post='542071' date='Jul 16 2009, 11:16 AM']Every amp [b]I've used[/b] has had a gain control, and I've played through some dodgy amps, believe me! Jennifer[/quote] My observation is based on probability as opposed to certainty. I don't discount the chance that there may be a bass amp that does not have this feature, it is just not something I have personally have encountered. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Leaving the amp gain control aside, isn't this what the volume control on the bass is for? - turning your volume down on the bass should not compromise your sound unless you are overdriving the input to the amp, and that is the sound you like. In that case then you need to get amp/cabs that will handle that sound, or at least give you the volume you need before it starts to fart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [quote name='Count Bassy' post='542341' date='Jul 16 2009, 03:49 PM']Leaving the amp gain control aside, isn't this what the volume control on the bass is for? - turning your volume down on the bass should not compromise your sound unless you are overdriving the input to the amp, and that is the sound you like. In that case then you need to get amp/cabs that will handle that sound, or at least give you the volume you need before it starts to fart.[/quote] You should really be playing with your bass volume at full as otherwise it'd get very annoying live knowing how far to have that turned etc and IME the tone is definately different if you have your volume turned down on your bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endorka Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 [quote name='Count Bassy' post='542341' date='Jul 16 2009, 03:49 PM']Leaving the amp gain control aside, isn't this what the volume control on the bass is for? - turning your volume down on the bass should not compromise your sound unless you are overdriving the input to the amp, and that is the sound you like. In that case then you need to get amp/cabs that will handle that sound, or at least give you the volume you need before it starts to fart.[/quote] There are two main sources of distortion of this type in combined amplifiers, one occuring at the preamp stage, the other at the poweramp stage. Some amplifiers have lights to indicate clipping (and therefore distortion) of both; some for one; and some for neither. For the vast majority of cases, the gain pot (and any associated pads) controls the level of signal coming from the bass and into the preamp section of the amplifier. If this is too high, distortion - desired or otherwise - will be the result. Setting the gain control to just below clipping level should prevent this distortion occuring. This works independently of the master volume pot, which controls the level of signal going into the power amp stage. Assuming you have the preamp gain set properly, with no distortion, it is possible to alter the position of the master volume in a logical and accountable manner. If you know the preamp input to the poweramp is clean, and you are still getting distortion, then as Count Bassy says, it is coming from the power amp or speakers, and you need to consider upgrading them, altering your tone using EQ, or turning the master volume down. Depending on the type of pickups in a bass, turning the volume down at the bass itself can affect the tone of the signal, and for passive instruments, you would usually want as strong a signal as possible going down the cable. The tone of active instruments is allegedly immune to changes in the volume control on the bass, but I have not found this to be universally the case at all. I have emphasised adjusting the gain stage of amplifiers in my posts because the OP mentioned that he had started using a new instrument with hotter pickups than previously, and adjusting the gain will help match his existing amplifier(s) to his new bass. Had he said he was playing the same instrument but in a louder band, for example, I may have placed the emphasis on the power amp part of the equation. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcrow Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 a trimmer pot in the cavity would do the job...but it means opening it up etc and off board trimmer...vol pot...would do as well... an old pedal with the guts removed and a suitable vol pot inserted would mean you could stomp it on and off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) +1 to everything ENdorka said. The thing here is that the preamp is putting out a lot of voltage and that volatge will tend to clip a lot of gain stages even if they are 'padded down'. If the OP doesnt want to get his output adjusted (which would be best IMO) then the next best thing would be to use an external passive volume pedal. The pots in those are usually much better quality than onboard volume pots, theyre not active so wont clip if too high a bass signal is fed into them, and wont attenuate the top end as much when turned down from the bass. NJEs selling one [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=54533&hl="]here for £15[/url] Edited July 16, 2009 by Spartacus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 This sounds a bit like going into a curry house and asking for the hottest one they've got - unfortunate farting sounds as an unintended consequence. In summary, the logical options so far seem to be: * Turning the volume down (trade-off between tone and an unplayable sound - life's a compromise) * Turning the amp input gain down * Adjusting the internal trim pot on those occasions when one is playing through a borrowed rig * Reducing the level of the output signal via an external pad or volume pedal * Hump your rig everywhere * Forget the whole idea and use a passive with a colossal pre-amp pedal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veils Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) Cheers for the advice here. I am aware that turning down the input or gain stage on the amp can tone this down, but it kills the tone. What I really need to know is, since I admittedly don't have a brilliant understanding of the technicalities of signal is how do I most effectively tame the output without killing the tone. Our drummer who is a FOH wizard says I should buy my own DI (he recommends a Radial J48) because that will give a good signal for the FOH to work with and as long as I can hear myself on stage that is the most important thing even if the sound (which I hear on stage) from the amp is s**t Edited July 16, 2009 by Veils Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartacus Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 [quote name='Veils' post='542707' date='Jul 16 2009, 10:37 PM']Cheers for the advice here. I am aware that turning down the input or gain stage on the amp can tone this down, but it kills the tone. What I really need to know is, since I admittedly don't have a brilliant understanding of the technicalities of signal is how do I most effectively tame the output without killing the tone.[/quote] Easy. Get the preamp gain adjusted downwards so it doesnt overdrive everything it touches. You can still have a hot output without overdriving everything. THAT is killing your tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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