Students learning the 'wrong' way

[ardi100]

Hi,

I'm a secondary school teacher and have joined the school's jazz band, initially to get some practice reading and playing standards but more importantly to mentor the kids playing the bass.

They get lessons at school of the guitar teacher(!). I didn't really question this at first but the longer I've played with them the more I'm noticing how bad their technique is. I'm no technocrat and mine leaves a bit to be desired (especially on the double bass that I'm playing in the Jazz band), but I'm noticing really basic mistakes that could really hold them back if they keep at it.

I've thought about talking to the head of music about this but I'm reluctant to for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I'm not a trained music or bass teacher and don't feel 'qualified' to criticise someone's professionalism. Secondly, it's the teacher's livelihood at stake and I don't want to be responsible for any loss of his earnings.

I just learned yesterday that a kid is learning the double bass (hurrauh) off the violin teacher (huh??)! Even the head of music thought that was 'wierd'.

What should I do? I fell like I should 'do' something but I'm not sure what. Any thoughts or suggerstions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Owen]

The guitar teacher's manager is probably and ex trumpet player who has NO idea that the techniques are different.

Finding a proper DB teacher is really difficult. Giving one enough work to make it worth their while getting out of bed is hard unless it involves teaching 'cello as well.

The guitar teacher is payed by the hour. "Can you teach bass? It will mean more hours." "Of course I can, when will I start?" Bass, how hard can it be? You know how that works.

Try and talk to the guitar teacher personally. She/he will probably be cool about it and might even welcome input.

There are elements of technique which are easily adaptable between violin and DB, especially if the teacher has had some training.

[The Funk]

At my old school we had a double bass teacher come in for half a day a week to cover our lessons. Decent player too - Pete 'Kubryk' Townsend.

I think the classical double bass players might have had a different teacher.

[Eight]

Maybe mention it to the students themselves? Nothing heavy just a quick "Hey, you seem to like playing this and you could probably be really good. A dedicated bass teacher could probably really improve your playing"?

[crez5150]

My old trumpet teacher once said to me..... 'Some people say that practice makes perfect..... If you practice incorrectly the you are going to be far from perfect'

J

[dlloyd]

It's a tricky one, but I'd probably avoid correcting them. What exactly are the issues with the kid's technique?

If you were to notice a kid's deficiencies in another subject, would you intervene? Would that be considered professional?

[alexclaber]

I would definitely talk to the guitar teacher personally, not his/her boss nor the students.

The scale length on an electric bass is ~50% more than that of a guitar whilst a double bass is about three times as long as a violin's, whilst the string tension on either bass instrument is much higher. You can't expect the left hand technique to stay the same, and with the smaller hands of children/teenagers there are so many potential technique problems which will affect their playing ability and could even cause serious physical problems such as tendonitis.

Alex

[danlea]

I suppose it depends on the standard and resources of the school. If it's a matter of choosing between having bass lessons from a guitar or violin teacher, and having no lessons at all, it's an easy decision for the school. If you think you can have some positive input, you should go for it, but I'd also be wary of criticising a teacher's methods without actually seeing the content of their lessons. I'm sure you're aware that kids don't always pick up or follow advice from teachers!

[AdamWoodBass]

I know you're saying you're not a qualified teacher and all but maybe if you think you have something to offer you should offer your services. If you've been playing for a few years and you're not struggling with things anymore then you're probably good enough to teach. Remember kids don't need to be taught by Stanley Clarke, they just need someone who can give them a nudge in the right direction. When I started teaching I had no intention to, I'd had no training and I had only done the first 3 months of my music degree. I got a phone call from a mate on my course who worked in a music shop telling me that the bass teacher had quit and that they needed someone to teach a load of students that night. So I just thought screw it I need the money, I've been teaching ever since.

The thing is bad technique leads to worse technique and then leads to dangerous technique which leads to RSI and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. If you catch bad technique early enough its fairly easy to correct it but if the student's been playing that way for a couple of years then you'll have a bit of a battle on your hands (been there, its haaaaard work!) Honestly though mate I reckon you should consider it. I know you're thinking about the guitar teachers livelyhood but to be honest no guitar teacher should be teaching people bass unless they have been a bass player before and actually know how to play bass. It really winds me up that most guitarist's still think that the bass is a downgrade from guitar and therefore they can both play it and teach it. Thats like saying I can play trumpet therefore I can play saxophone.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='AdamWoodBass' post='518305' date='Jun 19 2009, 12:48 PM']It really winds me up that most guitarist's still think that the bass is a downgrade from guitar and therefore they can both play it and teach it. Thats like saying I can play trumpet therefore I can play saxophone.[/quote]

I'd say it was more like the difference between clarinet and sax. The mechanics are broadly the same, but there's a hell of a lot of adjustment needed between the two.

[iamapirate]

Practise, unfortunately, makes permenant

[ardi100]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

I will talk to the teacher. He might not have known about the things I've noticed (left hand thumb position and right hand middle finger use) and I'll just flag it up.

I don't want to teach bass, I'm flat out trying to teach English as it is!

I do play in the Jazz band with them and I'll continue to support bass students as and when.

Cheers again.

[GreeneKing]

As a mentor surely you have a responsibility to address it, as amicably as possible of course

[jakenewmanbass]

I don't wish to be too condemning of the views here so far, but I feel they are almost all way too accomodating for what is simply wrong. Learning music is a highly specialised subject and while I feel that we can all offer a bit of help to beginners with the odd tip and pointer we should not undertake the full on teaching of an instrument without a 'first instrument' type facility.
Ironically the violin teacher will be more cogniscent of double bass requirements than a guitar player teaching bass, the main reason being in my view that all the string family is predicated upon single note techniques, although cello and bass are much closer.
The approach, and what becomes conditioned in young players from learning are critical to how students can progress in later years so poor posture, hand position, finger approach, right hand technique etc etc if taught incorrectly can be very difficult to undo and prove immensely disheartening when the major 'late teen/entrance to serious study at college' years are reached and the student finds that on top of the massive ramping up of the learning requirement to achieve professional standards that they have a load of work to undo bad habits. It's scandalous in my view.
I had an experience with my own son where I took him to a music school in the area for drum lessons, they offered him a guitar teacher who, I reckon, knew little more than me about drums.
Guitar players in many cases in my experience (apart from the very good ones I know) often can't even tell you what the bass is doing exactly... so from that perspective is it right to try to teach someone that perception? what will it amount to? nearly... not quite...
Actually IMO in all but the most exceptional cases, AWFUL.
You are faced with a difficult situation because it should not fall to you through knowing about the bass to take on an endemic problem in our national music teaching tendencies. I personally would tackle the matter head on and suggest that they employ a bass tutor and have a quiet word with the tutor explaining my reasoning. Ultimately he/she should have declined the offer in the first place. I have on a few occasions...

Edited June 23, 2009 by jakesbass

[mcgraham]

Thanks for your input Jake. I always enjoy reading your position on these things.

I have to agree that contemporary 'musicians' are too accommodating of poor technique and poor playing. We are too ready to gloss over the bad in favour of the good, which, whilst positive and uplifting, isn't always spurring on and encouraging musical growth. More than this, a large number of contemporary musicians are too proud to take the criticism or constructive comments. The number of 'musicians' I've talked shop with that I can see clearly have a technique or playing issue, and as soon as I tentatively bring it up they concoct some story about why the way they do it is the way to go. I have no problem with 'live and let live' and to 'agree to disagree' if I can see that someone's argument is logical, well thought through and is capable of yielding good and efficient results. But this is rarely the case. In music and in other areas of life too.

IMO, we need to be more willing to dish out constructive criticism and directive encouraging comments, and equally as willing to absorb and reflect on such input, to the point of seeking suggestions and comments and analysing/critiquing your own playing.

As far as teaching the teaching issue is concerned, if you suspect/can see something is wrong with what the guitar teacher is teaching the kids, nip it in the bud now. Bear in mind it's not just his job, it's the kids educational development and possibly even their health that is on the line. It's irresponsible to ignore a fault if you see it, or at least question an issue if you think there could be one.

Mark

[MythSte]

Just to throw another angle in, If its not a specialized music school and theyre just taking lessons on the side, There's a fair chance they've gone in, turned their nose up at the theory and technique side and said "i want to play like Flea!".

Unlikely being in a jazz band, but food for thought.

[alexclaber]

You do realise you've used the wrong spelling of butt in the thread title don't you? I wouldn't have said anything but as you're a secondary school ENGLISH teacher...

Alex

[Doddy]

The Problem with most schools is that they view the electric bass as a guitar,and as such feel that a guitar teacher can do the
job. As it happens,I don't know of any 'primarily,guitar teachers who do a good job of teaching bass. Unfortunately,many local
education services cannot see this. It is not just with bass that this happens. I know of at least one percussion teacher who has started to
teach saxophone in a school-as long as he stayed one lesson ahead of his students no one cared.
Likewise I recently heard that the local schools music service was short of guitar teachers and was offering the job to violinists.
Most school kids don't care if the teacher can play or not-it's just an excuse to get out of maths for half an hour. Those who want to learn
usually seek out private lessons.

[ardi100]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='521734' date='Jun 23 2009, 02:34 PM']You do realise you've used the wrong spelling of butt in the thread title don't you? I wouldn't have said anything but as you're a secondary school ENGLISH teacher...

Alex[/quote]


I stand corrected!!

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='iamapirate' post='518399' date='Jun 19 2009, 02:06 PM']Practise, unfortunately, makes permenant[/quote]


That's the Killer Quote right there

[iamapirate]

[quote]Thats the Killer Quote[/quote]


woohoo! xD

I don't think that you're going to lose your job for correcting a bit of poor technique - I mean, if you do, it's their loss if they have crappy teachers that can't teach properly!!

Edited June 24, 2009 by iamapirate

[leftybassman392]

In an ideal world we'd all no doubt like students to be taught by 'first instrument' specialists. However there are some simple home truths that some of the contributors to this discussion seem to be missing. I say this with all due respect to the opinions expressed, and I'm not trying to play down the importance of what people have said.

I've run my own successful teaching practice for nearly 15 years, and have been a member of the RGT since 1996. In addition to this I'm a qualified schoolteacher. In my time I've seen plenty of the sort of second rate school tuition that many people here rightly complain about, and more often than not it's the local music service that is the most to blame for the situation - senior managers tend to be in the business of crisis management rather than providing effective tuition.

I take my job very seriously, and work on the basis that I'm laying the foundations for a lifetime of playing pleasure for every student I see. I'd like to make a couple of observations if I may:-

1. Bass guitar is a very difficult instrument to teach - it's not the same as teaching guitar and it's not the same as teaching double bass (although it has elements of both). Specialist bass tutors are in very short supply. It's true that my background is as a guitarist, but I've taken the time and trouble to learn how to play bass properly (which I see as a necessary prerequisite to being able to teach it properly). Not every guitar tutor takes as much trouble as I do, mainly because not many of them really enjoy playing it themselves (another prerequisite IMHO). Sad fact is, if all bass students were only ever taught by specialist, 'first instrument' bass tutors there'd be a f***ing sight less of them than there are. Most of my professional colleagues are exactly that - working professionals - and make the effort to do it properly because they take what they do seriously. No, they're not bass specialists, but they're mostly good enough at what they do to provide the right start to their students, both technically and musically. At the end of the day better that than nothing at all, never mind some of the numpties and wannabes I've seen passing themselves off as teachers over the years.

2. Lots of people have had plenty to say about tutors, but I haven't seen much discussion of the students themselves - which is a bit odd considering the title of this thread. Students want to learn to play instruments for many different reasons. Most don't want a big technique, many don't want to play in a band (strange but true) and have no lifelong professional playing ambitions (one 17-year old I work with - a keys player as it happens - one of the most naturally gifted musicians I've ever met.....wants to be an army officer!). Statistically, most experienced tutors of my acquaintance reckon they're doing well if they get one student in 10 that has a realistic prospect of a professional career on ANY instrument. I would urge everyone here (especially if you teach or plan to) to be very wary of confusing what you want for students with what they want for themselves. Without wishing to sound patronising, sometimes it can be very hard to stand back a little and think through what's actually best for the kid sitting in front of you.


Hope I haven't put too many people to sleep.

Edited June 24, 2009 by leftybassman392