G&L in trouble...?

[Misdee]

13 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

the change is brands like you listed that formed themselves and advertised via magazines and working with musicians (who you probably found about from press) to now where the brand starts and communicates via instagram and similar platforms. 

That's a good point, but the end result is still the same in so much as I feel like there are far fewer desirable new basses that I would consider buying. I expect a few other folks feel the same way.

 

A lot of the newer builders are offering what is essentially yet another faithful rendition of a Fender i.e brands like Moolon or Olinto, for example. There's less variety of worthwhile  original designs, for my taste anyway.

Edited 7 hours ago by Misdee

[kodiakblair]

9 minutes ago, Misdee said:

A lot of the newer builders are offering what is essentially yet another faithful rendition of a Fender i.e brands like Moolon or Olinto, for example. There's less variety of worthwhile  original designs, for my taste anyway.

Mainly that's because faithful renditions are what sells or at least gets them noticed. Give folk a familiar design but with a fancy finish and souped up hardware, they spot what changes you've made easily enough. Original designs tend to confuse rather than attract.

 

Patrice Vigier thinks it took 20 years before he sold one of his fretless guitars, Torzal still appear in "WTF is that ?". A recent WTF which made me smile was some Who fan in Australia deriding a Buzzard Bass.

 

  

[Misdee]

For me, the whole boutique passive Fender but not made by Fender fetish is getting a bit out of hand. Thousands of dollars for a bass sounds like...a Fender but I suppose with a bit of a story to it and some snake oil thrown in, if that's what you're really after. That's fair enough, let the buyer beware, but what I can't take is the guys who think they would be doing me a favour selling me one of their basses for mere money in return. Trust me, there are some out there.

 

At least G&L were honest about what they were offering and Leo's heritage. They actually did have some worthwhile innovations on the Fender designs and they could and should have been a lot more successful with them.

Edited 6 hours ago by Misdee

[LukeFRC]

55 minutes ago, Misdee said:

That's a good point, but the end result is still the same in so much as I feel like there are far fewer desirable new basses that I would consider buying. I expect a few other folks feel the same way.

Not wanting to labour the point - but the print/insta generation thing applies to us buyers too…

[Russ]

53 minutes ago, Misdee said:

That's a good point, but the end result is still the same in so much as I feel like there are far fewer desirable new basses that I would consider buying. I expect a few other folks feel the same way.

 

A lot of the newer builders are offering what is essentially yet another faithful rendition of a Fender i.e brands like Moolon or Olinto, for example. There's less variety of worthwhile  original designs, for my taste anyway.

There's probably more custom bass luthiers out there now than there has ever been, but most of them are pretty small scale operations.

 

Yes, the majority of the market is still FSOs, but you're starting to see more interesting instruments working their way into the limelight - the rise of Dingwall has been a big deal in that regard. Ibanez continue to be pretty brave with their designs, considering they're a mass-market manufacturer. You're not seeing so much of the alternative-material instruments, although you've got the likes of Klos picking up the baton dropped by Status when they stopped making aftermarket graphite necks, and it seems there's quite a big market out there for carbon-fibre acoustic guitars from the likes of Enya and Lava. 

 

At least, in the UK, we've got the likes of Shuker, Sei, Overwater and GB still making great custom instruments, although it's very sad (but understandable, given Rob's desire to retire) that Status have had to downsize so much.

[Misdee]

21 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Not wanting to labour the point - but the print/insta generation thing applies to us buyers too…

Well, I might be getting old in years but I still understand how the world works, for young people as much as myself. I suppose the critical difference is how much credibility and importance the individual places on whatever respective media.

 

18 minutes ago, Russ said:

There's probably more custom bass luthiers out there now than there has ever been, but most of them are pretty small scale operations.

 

Yes, the majority of the market is still FSOs, but you're starting to see more interesting instruments working their way into the limelight - the rise of Dingwall has been a big deal in that regard. Ibanez continue to be pretty brave with their designs, considering they're a mass-market manufacturer. You're not seeing so much of the alternative-material instruments, although you've got the likes of Klos picking up the baton dropped by Status when they stopped making aftermarket graphite necks, and it seems there's quite a big market out there for carbon-fibre acoustic guitars from the likes of Enya and Lava. 

 

At least, in the UK, we've got the likes of Shuker, Sei, Overwater and GB still making great custom instruments, although it's very sad (but understandable, given Rob's desire to retire) that Status have had to downsize so much.

You see Russ, I would beg to differ that most of the manufacturers you mention are adequate replacements for those that are effectively gone now. Dingwall would be the exception. Shuker, Sei, Overwater and GB all build fine basses but I wouldn't give them house room. They just have never appealed to me.  None of them can hold a candle to a Wal, or Status or Jaydee for that matter, in terms of being what I want. I'm sure plenty of other folks feel the same.

 

It's naive to think that what most people want when they are buying a bass is merely an adequate (or even superb) instrument. More than anything they are buying an idea combined with association, and the feelings that combination gives them. Very few bass builders appeal to me nowadays. It's not just a generational thing or me hankering for my youth, basses just aren't as interesting or diverse as they once were, fanned frets ect. not withstanding.

Edited 6 hours ago by Misdee

[tauzero]

23 minutes ago, Misdee said:

You see Russ, I would beg to differ that most of the manufacturers you mention are adequate replacements for those that are effectively gone now. Dingwall would be the exception. Shuker, Sei, Overwater and GB all build fine basses but I wouldn't give them house room. They just have never appealed to me.  None of them can hold a candle to a Wal, or Status or Jaydee for that matter, in terms of being what I want. I'm sure plenty of other folks feel the same.

 

OTOH, I have Seis and a Shuker and wouldn't touch a Wal as I find them unpleasant to play (might have another Status though). People want different things. Shuker, Sei, Overwater, GB, and ACG (can't miss Alan out) wouldn't be replacements for G&L as they're not the same volume of production - well, possibly Overwater, less so now that they've dropped the Aspiration series.

[LukeFRC]

I can think of a bundle of more recent builders doing interesting things… 

alpher

ACG

Dingwall

F bass

Strandberg

Klos

Marleaux

Luduc

Le Fay

Alusonic

Freedom custom guitar research 

rob allen

serek

wilcock

NS

 

of the ones you’ve listed Shuker and Sei are more one off makers,

Overwater have a position of trust for professional players in the U.K.  more so than bass players who frequent forums, wal have a unique electronics package and the flea connection, status the graphite usp - though I hated the king bass I tried - and   jaydee and GB I’ve no idea about and would never consider…

 

… but it’s all personal preference- with a very close link to the music you were into when you were young … 

 

the other difference of course is far less bass used in modern pop music now compared to x years ago …

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Russ]

36 minutes ago, Misdee said:

Well, I might be getting old in years but I still understand how the world works, for young people as much as myself. I suppose the critical difference is how much credibility and importance the individual places on whatever respective media.

 

You see Russ, I would beg to differ that most of the manufacturers you mention are adequate replacements for those that are effectively gone now. Dingwall would be the exception. Shuker, Sei, Overwater and GB all build fine basses but I wouldn't give them house room. They just have never appealed to me.  None of them can hold a candle to a Wal, or Status or Jaydee for that matter, in terms of being what I want. I'm sure plenty of other folks feel the same.

 

It's naive to think that what most people want when they are buying a bass is merely an adequate (or even superb) instrument. More than anything they are buying an idea combined with association, and the feelings that combination gives them. Very few bass builders appeal to me nowadays. It's not just a generational thing or me hankering for my youth, basses just aren't as interesting or diverse as they once were, fanned frets ect. not withstanding.

I think the difference with the likes of Wal, Status and Jaydee is, as a brand, they're known for a particular sound sound since they make their own pickups, preamps, etc (and hardware, in some cases). Most of the rest of them use commodity pickups, preamps, etc. Nothing wrong with either approach, in my opinion.

 

Out of the "new breed" of builders, I'd say the likes of Alpher and ACG have their own sound, since they make their own electronics, etc. Bernie isn't exactly one of the new breed, but GB would count too, since he uses bespoke pickups and electronics and his basses are known for having a certain sound. 

[Misdee]

31 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

I can think of a bundle of more recent builders doing interesting things… 

alpher

ACG

Dingwall

F bass

Strandberg

Klos

Marleaux

Luduc

Le Fay

Alusonic

Freedom custom guitar research 

rob allen

serek

wilcock

NS

 

of the ones you’ve listed Shuker and Sei are more one off makers,

Overwater have a position of trust for professional players in the U.K.  more so than bass players who frequent forums, wal have a unique electronics package and the flea connection, status the graphite usp - though I hated the king bass I tried - and   jaydee and GB I’ve no idea about and would never consider…

 

… but it’s all personal preference- with a very close link to the music you were into when you were young … 

 

the other difference of course is far less bass used in modern pop music now compared to x years ago …

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, there's no shortage of bass builders.

 

The acid test for their relative popularity and desirability though, is how easy it is to sell a used bass to the general public. A few of the basses you mention have conspicuously poor resale value, if you can find a buyer. More celebrated marques will trounce their worthy but less high-profile counterparts. Pay six grand for a new fancy custom Overwater or ACG and pay six grand for a basic standard model Fodera, put them both on Basschat and see how much of your outlay you can get back and how quickly.

[Russ]

19 minutes ago, Misdee said:

Oh, there's no shortage of bass builders.

 

The acid test for their relative popularity and desirability though, is how easy it is to sell a used bass to the general public. A few of the basses you mention have conspicuously poor resale value, if you can find a buyer. More celebrated marques will trounce their worthy but less high-profile counterparts. Pay six grand for a new fancy custom Overwater or ACG and pay six grand for a basic standard model Fodera, put them both on Basschat and see how much of your outlay you can get back and how quickly.

In terms of custom instruments, that's not usually the case - people like to pick their own choice of woods, hardware, pickups, neck dimensions, number of strings, fretted/fretless, etc and the chances of selling it on the used market mostly rely on someone else who's in the market for that sort of instrument having the same taste as you, and not wanting to deal with the lead time or additional expense of ordering their own.

 

Almost all basses, possibly with the exception of Wals and old Fenders, depreciate like used cars. Anyway, you buy a bass to play it, not as an investment. Then again, you're supposed to buy a house to live in it, and I suppose that doesn't stop people looking on them as investments... 

 

 

[LukeFRC]

51 minutes ago, Misdee said:

Oh, there's no shortage of bass builders.

 

The acid test for their relative popularity and desirability though, is how easy it is to sell a used bass to the general public. A few of the basses you mention have conspicuously poor resale value, if you can find a buyer. More celebrated marques will trounce their worthy but less high-profile counterparts. Pay six grand for a new fancy custom Overwater or ACG and pay six grand for a basic standard model Fodera, put them both on Basschat and see how much of your outlay you can get back and how quickly.

Acid test over what time period? go back a few years and that range of 80s custom basses, Wals and JD and statii etc were super cheap secondhand cos they weren’t fashionable. 
 

but we digress - your statement a load of posts back was “I don't see any of the newer makers as offering worthwhile alternatives to what those established brands offered.” - I suggest at least some of the makers I listed make exciting and interesting instruments that are worthwhile.

I also dont think I would use resale value as a main metric to judge the worthwhile ness or quality of an instrument.

[Misdee]

1 minute ago, LukeFRC said:

Acid test over what time period? go back a few years and that range of 80s custom basses, Wals and JD and statii etc were super cheap secondhand cos they weren’t fashionable. 
 

but we digress - your statement a load of posts back was “I don't see any of the newer makers as offering worthwhile alternatives to what those established brands offered.” - I suggest at least some of the makers I listed make exciting and interesting instruments that are worthwhile.

I also dont think I would use resale value as a main metric to judge the worthwhile ness or quality of an instrument.

I use the resale value as a metric to judge how much money I could get back.

 

If you ever want or need to sell a bass, they worth what you can get for them and what you get for them may well dictate what you can get to replace them.

 

I remember well when Wal basses were less valuable than today, but then again now they are grotesquely overvalued. They, and Status and JD, never super cheap in relation to other comparable basses, just relatively less overpriced than now.

 

Plenty of those basses you are mention are very attractive, no question, but I just can't see me handing over cash for most of them. 

 

 

 

[Russ]

1 minute ago, Misdee said:

I use the resale value as a metric to judge how much money I could get back.

 

If you ever want or need to sell a bass, they worth what you can get for them and what you get for them may well dictate what you can get to replace them.

 

I remember well when Wal basses were less valuable than today, but then again now they are grotesquely overvalued. They, and Status and JD, never super cheap in relation to other comparable basses, just relatively less overpriced than now.

 

Plenty of those basses you are mention are very attractive, no question, but I just can't see me handing over cash for most of them. 

 

 

 

I passed up a Wal for £250 in Cash Converters back in the mid-90s. It was a Mk1 with the V-shaped neck carve and it felt horrible in my hands. Would probably be worth a fortune now though. 

 

It was pretty much entirely because of Justin Chancellor of Tool that Wal got their second wind. After Aenima came out in 1996, you never saw a cheap Wal again. And now they regularly go for five-figure sums used and have a six-year waiting list if you want a new one. 

[Misdee]

16 minutes ago, Russ said:

I passed up a Wal for £250 in Cash Converters back in the mid-90s. It was a Mk1 with the V-shaped neck carve and it felt horrible in my hands. Would probably be worth a fortune now though. 

 

It was pretty much entirely because of Justin Chancellor of Tool that Wal got their second wind. After Aenima came out in 1996, you never saw a cheap Wal again. And now they regularly go for five-figure sums used and have a six-year waiting list if you want a new one. 

Nick Beggs just paid £15000 for his old Wal Pro bass. I could have bought that bass from a chap in Norfolk in 1995 for about £475 if I remember correctly. I passed because I couldn't be arsed going all the way to Cromer. 

 

Thirty years ago Wal would do you a new bass for about £1100-£1200 if you went to the workshop with cash. You could get a decent used MK1 Custom for about £600, maybe a bit less if you were lucky. A new Status Series 1 or Series 2 cost a few hundred quid more than a new Wal.

 

At that time  Wal and Jaydee were considered a bit old-hat compared to newer Warwicks ect. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Misdee

[neepheid]

In true BC fashion, this thread is going deliciously off the rails.

 

Two mentions of G&L in 15 posts, in a thread about G&L shutting down.

 

Don't ever change, BC...

Edited 2 hours ago by neepheid

[Misdee]

1 hour ago, Russ said:

In terms of custom instruments, that's not usually the case - people like to pick their own choice of woods, hardware, pickups, neck dimensions, number of strings, fretted/fretless, etc and the chances of selling it on the used market mostly rely on someone else who's in the market for that sort of instrument having the same taste as you, and not wanting to deal with the lead time or additional expense of ordering their own.

 

Almost all basses, possibly with the exception of Wals and old Fenders, depreciate like used cars. Anyway, you buy a bass to play it, not as an investment. Then again, you're supposed to buy a house to live in it, and I suppose that doesn't stop people looking on them as investments... 

 

 

You're not wrong Russ, but I don't think buying a bass is actually a rational transaction for most people. Particularly with expensive and esoteric basses, there's a certain amount of romance involved. It's significant that a lot of people have mentioned how G&L's  major perceived shortcoming was a lack glamour and excitement, leaving them with a worthy but dull image in the minds of too many consumers.