Self-Teaching Vs. Structured Lessons

[allighatt0r]

I'm totally self taught, using some books but mainly tablature and working it out as i go along... I really need to get lessons, but i know that if i do i might as well start from the beginning! My left hand technique is awful (however, i'm getting no pain, i have very felxible thumbs and i always play with a straight wrist, but that's no excuse...) and the limit of my theory knowledge is the major scale and the minor pentatonic... I remember all my songs using shapes i create in my minds eye on the fretboard.

Edited May 10, 2009 by allighatt0r

[xgsjx]

[quote]I find it a lot easier to learn things when playing in a band - because they're almost immediately useful and applicable.[/quote]
+1 here.

I find playing at home is good & productive, but when playing with the rest of the band (even jamming), so much more comes out of me from the inspiration they give.

[Josh]

Have had lessons which have put me in the right directions, 2 different teachers at 2 different times in my development but I've learnt more from just generally asking for help and getting it and putting it into practice.

[YouMa]

Skool sucks!

[xilddx]

I think the key is to assess what you want to be as a player / band member / composer. I'm perfectly alright where I am as a self-taught type. I get emailed MP3s from the band, I learn them by ear which I'm good at, add some inflections and interpretations of my own and try to support the vocal and the pulse with everything I do.

HOWEVER, I really wish I was an amazing reader, know deep theory, be able to play all scales and their intervalic variations at lightspeed, be able to improvise over bebop and be perfectly capable of getting a gig with Zappa had he been still been alive. I don't have the time to take this journey and have very little idea why I would want to. I am confused by myself.

[rslaing]

[quote name='silddx' post='484632' date='May 10 2009, 09:32 PM']I think the key is to assess what you want to be as a player / band member / composer. I'm perfectly alright where I am as a self-taught type. I get emailed MP3s from the band, I learn them by ear which I'm good at, add some inflections and interpretations of my own and try to support the vocal and the pulse with everything I do.

HOWEVER, I really wish I was an amazing reader, know deep theory, be able to play all scales and their intervalic variations at lightspeed, be able to improvise over bebop and be perfectly capable of getting a gig with Zappa had he been still been alive. I don't have the time to take this journey and have very little idea why I would want to. I am confused by myself.[/quote]

It is never too late.

[jakenewmanbass]

As a teacher of many years I feel that it depends on where you're at, and what you want to achieve. When I taught at colleges I had some students, that were on a degree course every week doing hard study and covering a range of subject matter that would equiip for a pro world. When I have private students these days I tend to give them enough material in a 1-2 hr lesson that (if they do it right) will keep them busy for a while, which is essentially them teaching themselves, I think the single most important aspect of being taught is that a good teacher will spot what you need (when you can't see it) and give you ideas you would never have even thought of.
Teaching yourself is perfectly good as music is just out there for you to work out, if you are good enough and work hard enough you will achieve what you need, anything less than good enough though, and you would save yourself a lot of time by getting a few lessons.
Finally a really good teacher (which is what I [i]try[/i] to be) will make you feel good about what you do and encourage in just the right measure to give slight euphoria and slightly confused hunger leaving you wanting more.... and while you keep wanting more.... you're getting better... and you'll barely notice.

[xilddx]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='484651' date='May 10 2009, 09:46 PM']As a teacher of many years I feel that it depends on where you're at, and what you want to achieve. When I taught at colleges I had some students, that were on a degree course every week doing hard study and covering a range of subject matter that would equiip for a pro world. When I have private students these days I tend to give them enough material in a 1-2 hr lesson that (if they do it right) will keep them busy for a while, which is essentially them teaching themselves, I think the single most important aspect of being taught is that a good teacher will spot what you need (when you can't see it) and give you ideas you would never have even thought of.
Teaching yourself is perfectly good as music is just out there for you to work out, if you are good enough and work hard enough you will achieve what you need, anything less than good enough though, and you would save yourself a lot of time by getting a few lessons.
Finally a really good teacher (which is what I [i]try[/i] to be) will make you feel good about what you do and encourage in just the right measure to give slight euphoria and slightly confused hunger leaving you wanting more.... and while you keep wanting more.... you're getting better... and you'll barely notice.[/quote]

You sound like the sort of teacher I need. I have been thinking of taking some lessons. If you are in, or near, London, would you PM me some details if you have space for a student?

[niceguyhomer]

I had about a year's worth of lessons off Nick Carey who frequents these very pages and they were invaluable. I used to play and think and play like a guitarist (which I was) and my technique was a pile of bat poo. Nick sorted out my technique and inspired me to practice and get better - which I did.

I'm at a stage now where I need a few more lessons to get me over the wall and onto the next level. Lessons open up my mind to ideas and take me down avenues I wouldn't venture if left to my own devices.

[Delberthot]

I began playing when I was 12 and until I was 14 I only used the E string and fretted with my thumb cos i had no clue that i was doing anything wrong.

It wasn't until I got into my first band at 14 that i began to change to the conventional way of playing.

When I was 15, 2 things happened: I began getting lessons from James Finnegan, formerly of Hue & Cry and before Stiltskin. The other thing being that I discovered Eric Clapton's 24 Nights album. Getting the lessons enabled me to learn about scales and that album showed me how they could be used.

The version of White Room on there was absolutely phenomenal. Nathan East's playing on this just blew me away. So much so that I learned it note for note until I perfected it then did something that you can't do anymore - I flicked the lever from 33 1/3 rpm to 45 and played it like that until I got that as well.

I did get some double bass lessons when i was 16 but didn't stick at it long enough to get any good at reading until i joined a big band at 17. I called the band leader up and he asked me if I could read so I lied and said that I could. When I got to rehearsal, I realised that i would be taking over from my old double bass teacher who was leaving.

Before I knew it, a gig came up and I was still rubbish so one day I stood in the middle of the living room with my music and taught myself to read properly. It took the best part of a week but I was able to learn the basics and enough to get me throught that first gig. I ended up spending 2 years with that band and did get a lot better at reading but somethings I still learned by memory rather than reading.

Since then I've only ever not been in a band for about 6 months and that was when I was 19. I've been fortunate to have been playing constantly for over 13 years without a break.


I would say that lessons helped. The only things I've ever learned from an instructional video are Popeye from the Nathan East video and a couple of Lary Graham tunes from the Paul Westwood video.


Its a bit like driving a car - when you get lessons, you're being taught the basics and the theory behind it but you only really learn properly when you are yourself and able to put those lessons into practice for yourself. Sometimes with an instructor/teacher/etc you may hold back through lack of confidence but on your own you can give it everything without fear of someone telling you you are wrong or whatever.

I would say that I am for the most part self-taught with maybe 9 months of lessons out of 22 years of playing. The lessons definitely helped me to an extent but most of the work I've done myself by playing at every opportunity, absorbing as much music as I can and always trying to be in a band that allows me to try new things.


There's definitely value in having lessons if you learn something that you can use and expand on - with me it was major and minor scales. 22 years on and I still find myself playing stuff and having no idea what it is that I actualy played but it fitted into the song.

[xilddx]

Good post, that. Thanks.

[peted]

I started with lessons and that gave me a great foundation to work on. Have been teaching myself by observation and re-reading the first chapter of a few books (my attention span is TERRIBLE, the result of the internet/XBOX generation ). I am intending on going back to lessons in the near future as I feel that my playing has plateau'd and I need to give it some structure to progress further.

Getting lessons doesn't bestow you with magical bass playing skills, but it gives you a framework of practice to focus your efforts.

[Wylie]

I have two teachers, one informal - a friend who plays bass, violin, piano, and composes - and one formal, a bass player who makes a living doing gigs all over the Northeast. I have tried books, and to a point books are fine, but there are always questions the books don't answer, which is frustrating.

I am a slow learner on my own, but with my teachers I can pick things up rapidly, mainly because I make them show me practical applications of what they teach. And as someone else said, playing with others is best of all because then the music teaches you.

[7string]

The problem is that there's no definitive method to play a bass guitar, unlike the orchestral instruments.

There's no right or wrong way to learn or to play only opinions on what's correct or not. The most technically excellent players aren't necessarily the ones who are the most successful or the ones who most people look up to.

It's a minefield

[OutToPlayJazz]

Many people misunderstand the idea of going to a teacher. Whether you go and get some lessons or do it yourself, the principal is that you'll only get out of things what you put into them. I teach people technique & reading, but at the end of the day, it's only 10% me (telling the pupil what to do & how to go about it) and 90% the pupil, who should be going away and developing the ideas I give them. If you go to a teacher and expect to be spoon fed, it's not going to work

Someone mentioned that the bass isn't an orchestral instrument. Actually, if you approach it like it's close cousin, the double bass & use all the double bass techniques for the left hand, it gives you more flexibility, economy and speed.

Rich.

[7string]

I think that there has to be a degree of latitude when applying double bass technique to bass guitar.

The 1-2-4 technique in the lower registers might not suit everyone and could even be painful.

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='7string' post='494176' date='May 21 2009, 01:00 PM']I think that there has to be a degree of latitude when applying double bass technique to bass guitar.

The 1-2-4 technique in the lower registers might not suit everyone and could even be painful.[/quote]

I really don't think you've thought this through, have you?

Actually, playing 1-2-4 fingering in the lower registers is less likely to induce any form of pain compared with playing one finger per fret down there. When playing 1-2-4 fingering, the hand is only covering three frets and therefore much more compact and therefore expending less energy. Those who use the third finger below the 7th are risking RSI and tendon problems. Of course, this is all dependant on the position of the thumb, which should stay behind the neck, opposite the middle finger.

Edited May 21, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz

[mcgraham]

Rich (and any other upright and electric bassist), what are your thoughts on the application of upright bass technique to electric bass?

Mark

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote]Rich (and any other upright and electric bassist), what are your thoughts on the application of upright bass technique to electric bass?

Mark[/quote]

The use of upright technique on electric definitely works. As I was saying in an earlier post, the compact left hand (only spanning a tone or three frets) allows for greater flexibility, economy of movement & speed. Yes, there are times when the left hand expands to reach the 'next note', but below the 7th fret the 1-2-4 method of fingering works extremely well - The gaps between the frets are much larger at this end of the neck, anyway. It's common sense

Above the 7th, I tend to revert to one finger per fret, which is almost exactly what would happen on a double bass (perhaps a little higher for the third finger & thumb position).

Economy within the fingers is a good idea as well. I see a lot of people wasting a lot of energy by hopping from finger to finger, when they could be operating so much better by actually keeping fingers on - For instance, when playing a fourth finger note, try using all four fingers. And when you want to move from a first finger note to a fourth finger note, try just adding three fingers, instead of taking one finger off to replace it with another. This gives you one move as opposed to two! The other classic is when people take all their fingers off the board to change strings. Try keeping a finger (or fingers) in reserve on the previous string. It really does save a lot of energy.

Rich.

Edited May 22, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz

[lowdown]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='495285' date='May 22 2009, 03:49 PM']The other classic is when people take all their fingers off the board to change strings.[/quote]

So would you suggest never change your strings?

Sorry Rich, out of context.
And you are right, wasted energy indeed.

Garry

[xilddx]

OK, Never having had a bass lesson ever, I had my first lesson with Jake Newman (Jakesbass on 'ere) a few hours ago. All I can say is my mind has been opened like a bloody flower! I'm no newbie to this bass biznis but blimey, has Jake taken me apart. I feel like a musician all of a sudden but with so much personal expression to learn. We talked a lot of the time and this was a massively important part of the session.

My most enormous f***ing lesson for tonight was: Sing what you hear in your head, then play it on the bass. Jake was singing me what he heard in his head, then playing it on the bass milliseconds later. I, being the competitive sort, had a bash at the same thing, Jake told me I was singing what I was playing, not playing what I was singing. He was absolutely right. I really thought I was playing what I was singing, but I truly wasn't and I instinctively knew that. A very humbling and exciting experience. It taught me a lot about myself and a helluva lot about why I didn't feel I was expressing myself musically. I am restricted by my technique, my repetitive patterns and my lack of/mis understanding of basic theory. I have some homework and I am raring to go! I can't believe how beneficial one lesson from a real musician (one making a living at it, one who has played with such notable musicians, and who is so accomplished at personal expression through a piece of wood with strings on it.) could be.

I feel so rejuvinated

Cheers, Jake.