Cornfedapache Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Given that I'm only partly taught in technique and little in theory, I'm getting confused by 16th/18th note references in BGM etc. What are these? I'm more confused by the instruction example on page 78 where the guy is talking about moving around from first to 18th note.... But Ex1 has 35 notes in it... Help - it all sounds terribly interesting and useful but I've got no idea what it's all about!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Hey. 16th notes mean, that in a bar of four, there are sixteen notes. These are known as semi-quavers. If you play each of them twice as long, you'll get eighth notes. These are quavers. If you just play four notes in a bar, these are crotchets. Two notes - minims. One long note - semibreve. Remember, if you're playing in 3/4 (three beats in a bar) there are 3 crotchets in a bar, 6 eighth notes (quavers) and 12 sixteenth notes (semiquavers). Hope that makes sense. If you want to hear 16th notes in action listen to some fast repetative grooves from Jaco Pastorius or Francis Rocco Prestia from Tower of Power. Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornfedapache Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Ahh I see! I assumed that the 16th note etc was to do with note 16 in a sequence - i.e. some progression I didn't know about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Never heard of 18th notes so I reckon there's a misunderstanding (possibly) between: The 18th note of a passage (Note Number 18) And a subdivision of 1 beat into four parts (16th notes or semi quavers) The reason they are called 16th notes is that in 4/4 time (the most popular time signature) there are four groups (one for each beat) so 4x4 is 16 urgo 16th notes Forgive me if I'm being over simple, but I always feel a thorough explanation of these things is important because as your question shows it's easy to get confused... There is a saying: "A little knmowledge is a dangerous thing" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trent900 Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 This is that damned American terminology which seems to permeate popular music causing such confusion. Try [url="http://cnx.org/content/m10945/latest/"]this music theory page[/url] for an explanation with pictures of whole notes, half notes etc. But basically, if we're talking a 4/4 time signature (by far the most common - for major beats in a bar - standard rock), then: A whole note, or semibreve in classical language, lasts a whole bar, or four beats A half note, or minim, lasts half a bar, or two beats A quarter note, or crotchet, lasts one beat and is generally the main driving beat of the piece An eighth note, or quaver, lasts half a beat A sixteenth note, or semiquaver, lasts a quarter of beat A thirty-second note, or demisemiquaver, lasts an eighth of a beat and so on A whole note is an open oval with no stem A half note is an open oval with a stem A quarter note is a closed oval with a stem An eighth note is a closed oval with a stem with a little tick at the end...or several closed ovals with stems linked together with one line A sixteenth note is a closed oval, stem, TWO little ticks...or several closed ovals with stems linked by TWO lines. If someone is talking about 'eighteenth note' then they do mean literally the eighteenth note in a sequence - note values themselves are only named after powers of two (2, 4, 8, 16, 32 etc). Hope this helps. Its hard explaining it in words, you tie yourself in knots for which I apologise. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornfedapache Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 All makes sense, thanks! Sorta rings various bells in my brain from my days at school in music lessons... I'm not even going to start about the random timings our writer uses... 12/7 was one according to our drummer who's the most advanced music theorist of the lot of us!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cytania Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Classic rock bass sound is 'pumpin eigths', you know 'ba-ba-ba-ba-ba'. Sixteenths is double that, a real fast rocker or punk type song. Playing these is actually harder than it sounds, your fingers sort of get bored and deviate. When I started bass I quickly latched onto boogie-lines and other classic rock'n'roll stuff but rock eigths seemed obvious, easy. How wrong I was. Getting that rock style consistent and on-the-beat has taken alot of the last year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Here you go... As has already been mentioned, the Americans use the following names for note lengths - I've provided the English translations as well. Whole Note - Semibreve - 4 beats Dotted Half Note - Dotted Minim - 3 beats Half Note - Minim - 2 beats Quarter Note - Crotchet - 1 beat Eighth Note - Quaver - 1/2 beat Sixteenth Note - Semiquaver - 1/4 beat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor_of_the_bass Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='Cornfedapache' post='478408' date='May 3 2009, 06:40 PM']All makes sense, thanks! Sorta rings various bells in my brain from my days at school in music lessons... I'm not even going to start about the random timings our writer uses... 12/7 was one according to our drummer who's the most advanced music theorist of the lot of us!!![/quote] He must have invented a new note length value then - perhaps its me but there is no such thing as a Seventh note! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='478632' date='May 3 2009, 10:45 PM']He must have invented a new note length value then - perhaps its me but there is no such thing as a Seventh note![/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Here is a young bassist who needs advice and the last three posts are confusing, sarcastic and then less sarcastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I fail to see how my post was confusing, Steve. It's very simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='steve-soar' post='478687' date='May 4 2009, 12:04 AM']Here is a young bassist who needs advice and the last three posts are confusing, sarcastic and then less sarcastic.[/quote] He is just being introduced into the world of the pro Muso.... Thats all... Dont forget people also say... 'can you play 16th's on the hats' even when its in 3/4 or 5/4... Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8SPeR60lRI"]listen and play along with this[/url] D - A- B - G its in 8 beats to the bar. Eighth notes, properly called quavers. right now to get 16th notes or semiquavers play twice as many beats per bar. gives your right hand a workout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='478692' date='May 4 2009, 12:06 AM']I fail to see how my post was confusing, Steve. It's very simple.[/quote]Read his opening post, he mentions 16th notes, then the 18th note played in a piece of music, so he has a learning opportunity that we can help with. Printing a standard cascade of note divisions is helpful but to anybody who confuses 16th notes played in a piece of music and the 18th note played in a score, they need a bit more grass roots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='steve-soar' post='478687' date='May 4 2009, 12:04 AM']Here is a young bassist who needs advice and the last three posts are confusing, sarcastic and then less sarcastic.[/quote] Check out post No.4 Steve... (and then No.6) and I have to agree with OTPJ that his is a pretty straight up and down explanation (in graphic form) Possibly the "He must have invented a new note length" is a little sarcastic but the fact that it doesn't exist is true and it's just the british way to be a little ascerbic in imparting info (high definition culture and all that) so the guy gets to learn the subtleties of rhythmic subdivision and chivvying style in one go.... I really think it's all fine here mate Edited May 4, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='478580' date='May 3 2009, 09:40 PM']As has already been mentioned, the Americans use the following names for note lengths[/quote] and they are wrong! [quote name='trent900' post='477800' date='May 2 2009, 04:48 PM']This is that damned American terminology which seems to permeate popular music causing such confusion.[/quote] +1 and BGM being British should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornfedapache Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='478580' date='May 3 2009, 09:40 PM']Here you go... As has already been mentioned, the Americans use the following names for note lengths - I've provided the English translations as well. Whole Note - Semibreve - 4 beats Dotted Half Note - Dotted Minim - 3 beats Half Note - Minim - 2 beats Quarter Note - Crotchet - 1 beat Eighth Note - Quaver - 1/2 beat Sixteenth Note - Semiquaver - 1/4 beat[/quote] Blimey - now that I've seen that again, I actually remember it from school music lessons when I was around 10!!! Thanks for the help, guys. 16ths now make perfect sense Re-reading the P78 article also makes some sense as well in light of the above explanations. Too advanced for ickle old me at the moment tho! Edited May 4, 2009 by Cornfedapache Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 [quote name='doctor_of_the_bass' post='478632' date='May 3 2009, 10:45 PM']He must have invented a new note length value then - perhaps its me but there is no such thing as a Seventh note![/quote] My understanding is that it is possible to write a part in 12/7, where the whole note is broken into 7 equal parts - whether it's useful to write the piece out that way is a different matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northstreet Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I prefer the american naming convention. The last time I talked about quavers the singer went and bought some crisps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) [quote]My understanding is that it is possible to write a part in 12/7, where the whole note is broken into 7 equal parts - whether it's useful to write the piece out that way is a different matter.[/quote] Hmmm... The traditional meaning of the time signature is that the upper number is the quantity of beats per bar & the lower denotes the type of beat (as a fraction of a semibreve,) Therefore, a bar of 12/7 would consist of 12 double-dotted quavers! Try counting that one! 7/4 & 7/8 are quite widely used in more contemporary music. There's a lovely Flecktones tune called "Vix 7" or something like that. Edited May 4, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 [quote name='northstreet' post='478813' date='May 4 2009, 10:37 AM']I prefer the american naming convention.[/quote] So do i, In tandem with the time sig, it all makes numerical sense, especially for the beginner. This is a great book for all that stuff [ proberly been posted before] [url="http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Reading-Text-All-Instruments/dp/0769233775#reader"]http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Reading-Text-...69233775#reader[/url] Garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='478815' date='May 4 2009, 10:42 AM']No! You [i]can[/i] have a bar divided into seven equal parts but that is described differently, 7 over 4.... 5 over 4 etc. But that is not written as a time signature and cannot result in subdivision in the way the lower number of the two can (it can always be divided into smaller elements) But there is [i]no[/i] lower denomination of 7 as in 8/7 <--- this is [b]wrong[/b] So lets be clear so we don't spread mis information. 12/7 is [b]wrong[/b] The lower number is always divisible by 2.[/quote] Hmm... [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures#.22Irrational.22_meters"]this[/url] would seem to suggest that's not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Weird one. I've seen beats divided into 5 or 7 (barred as triplets are but with a 7 instead of a 3 written above (or underneath)). Never actually seen a key signature like 12/7 but its existence almost makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) [quote]Hmm... this would seem to suggest that's not the case.[/quote] Interesting to see Thomas Ades mentioned in that article. I worked with him in the Britten-Pears contemporary courses in the early 90's. Amazing pianist & a very gifted composer. So, yes your mention of 12/7 time is entirely possible, but utterly ludicrous to count or play. Possibly the most interesting piece I ever played was a new commission by Colin Touchin. The last movement consisted of a bar of 15/8 followed by a bar of 5/8 over and over again. Try counting that one! A more approachable example is "America" by Bernstein from West Side Story. The time signature is marked at the start as 6/8:3/4 Same idea here. One bar of each consecutively. Edited May 4, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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