51m0n Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HeavyJay' post='475871' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:05 PM']Forgive me for getting you started on this but, please could you get started on this? The guitarist I play with is a big fan of digital delay.[/quote] Right you asked for it:- Reverb live:- Anytime you play live in a nice big room it has plenty of reverb unless its a thoroughly professionally treated room. Reverb has the effect of moving sources into the background. Thats what it is used for at mixdown, that and putting things 'in a sonic space'. Basically the higher the ratio of reverb to direct the further back you tend to drop that sound. The upshot is that to combat this the sound may then be made either extremely bright or extremely loud (out of all proportion to what is actually required) to bring it forward in the mix. Lead guitarists love to whack a load of reverb on their guitar, it gives an illusion of sustain when playing solo in the bedroom. Bring that sound into a band setting though and their guitar drops back in the mix, so they turn up even more and fill all the sonic space up with a wall of reverb crud. No one can hear anything at all for lead guitar reverb mud and ear splittingly treble orientated hi gain guitar. Awful! Delay live:- Caveat: I do understand that certain signature guitar sounds are very delay dependant, but those sounds all suffer to a certain extent from the same issues as the too much reverb situation. Reverb is effectively lots and lots and lots of delays all jumbled together after all. If your guitarist has so much delay on that you cant tell what he is playing now vs what is a repeat then he will tend to sit further and further back in the mix - his sound is now effectively more of a keyboard pad. Again he will tend to turn himself up (not being a keyboard player he wont think of his arpeggios plus delay as in fact just that a nice pad). Quite possibly until he fills all sonic space, and STILL complain that he cant hear himself - mainly cos all any of us can hear now is the god awful delay.... These modulation effects all tend to move things into the background, you can cause the same problems by overuse of chorus. I like Michael Manring's approach to chorus, he say he turns it up until he can _just_ hear it, then turns it down a smidge. When you turn it off you notice its gone, otherwise you'd be hard put to tell exactly whether or not something is there. I try and do the same thing with reverb whenever I get the chance. Acoustic space isnt something you really hear, but it affects you perception of what you are hearing, if you stray too far from that you can make life very difficult for yourself. In the studio go for your life, go nuts with fx, whatever floats your boat. Do it at mixdown though, not when tracking, But live you are fighting an alien and hostile acoustic environment 9 times out of 10, and if you want to hear yourselves, and be heard you need to cut the clutter right out. Both on stage and off. A hint of something in a band that sounds really well balanced is more often than not actually enough. Go over the top and the experience of the punters will be damaged due to the inevitable volume war that follows. You all may be very lucky and have guitarists who are trained sound engineers and understand this stuff, or just have incredible understanding of their gear and how fx can change thing, and therefore when to use how much of what. I am sooo pleased for you if you do. But I suspect it may not always be the case! Edited April 30, 2009 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Steve_nottm' post='475895' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:21 PM']Interesting topic. Whilst i'm aware that guitarists sometimes use a "bedroom tone" that doesn't work in a band situation I can struggle to say clearly what needs to be done to change it. I tend to tell them to boost mids and highs to avoid "my" area. Any pointers?[/quote] I also struggle to explain it with words. I guess you could draw a picture showing EQ curves and such, but I think that might be even more confusing. For me it's an advantage to be able to say "can I try" and just haul on their guitar and sort their amp out, and give it back, and let them realise that it does in fact work. I think the best way of explaining it would be to appeal to the guitard's sensibilities. Tell him that by backing off the gain he'll be able to get down to "his real tone", explain to him that by cutting bass and treble and adding mids he'll sound louder and clearer and everyone will hear what he's doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='475900' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:27 PM']I also struggle to explain it with words. I guess you could draw a picture showing EQ curves and such, but I think that might be even more confusing. For me it's an advantage to be able to say "can I try" and just haul on their guitar and sort their amp out, and give it back, and let them realise that it does in fact work. I think the best way of explaining it would be to appeal to the guitard's sensibilities. Tell him that by backing off the gain he'll be able to get down to "his real tone", explain to him that by cutting bass and treble and adding mids he'll sound louder and clearer and everyone will hear what he's doing.[/quote] Or just it him over the back of the head with a guitar stand, sort his sound out and tell him he passed out at the end of the last solo - so overcome with emotion was he - chances are he'll not notice..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='475892' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:20 PM']sorry, gotta disagree with that. If you are good player you are good player....(edit)...Sorry if I sound a big facetious, I'm having one of them days [/quote] You're absolutely right that it's possible to be technically gifted and musically dextrous without knowing squat about carving a tone. And vice-versa. But it's so much nicer for the punter when it all comes together in one package. Y'know what the problem is? Orchestras have a bloke who stands at the front and faces the musicians, so he's sort of hearing what the punters are hearing. If it doesn't sound nice, he sorts it out. Bands don't have those, and I think we should. Every band should hire a conductor. No need to thank me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeavyJay Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='51m0n' post='475899' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:25 PM']Right you asked for it:- Reverb live:- Anytime you play live in a nice big room it has plenty of reverb unless its a thoroughly professionally treated room. Reverb has the effect of moving sources into the background. Thats what it is used for at mixdown, that and putting things 'in a sonic space'. Basically the higher the ratio of reverb to direct the further back you tend to drop that sound. The upshot is that to combat this the sound may then be made either extremely bright or extremely loud (out of all proportion to what is actually required) to bring it forward in the mix. Lead guitarists love to whack a load of reverb on their guitar, it gives an illusion of sustain when playing solo in the bedroom. Bring that sound into a band setting though and their guitar drops back in the mix, so they turn up even more and fill all the sonic space up with a wall of reverb crud. No one can hear anything at all for lead guitar reverb mud and ear splittingly treble orientated hi gain guitar. Awful! Delay live:- Caveat: I do understand that certain signature guitar sounds are very delay dependant, but those sounds all suffer to a certain extent from the same issues as the too much reverb situation. Reverb is effectively lots and lots and lots of delays all jumbled together after all. If your guitarist has so much delay on that you cant tell what he is playing now vs what is a repeat then he will tend to sit further and further back in the mix - his sound is now effectively more of a keyboard pad. Again he will tend to turn himself up (not being a keyboard player he wont think of his arpeggios plus delay as in fact just that a nice pad). Quite possibly until he fills all sonic space, and STILL complain that he cant hear himself - mainly cos all any of us can hear now is the god awful delay.... These modulation effects all tend to move things into the background, you can cause the same problems by overuse of chorus. I like Michael Manring's approach to chorus, he say he turns it up until he can _just_ hear it, then turns it down a smidge. When you turn it off you notice its gone, otherwise you'd be hard put to tell exactly whether or not something is there. I try and do the same thing with reverb whenever I get the chance. Acoustic space isnt something you really hear, but it affects you perception of what you are hearing, if you stray too far from that you can make life very difficult for yourself. In the studio go for your life, go nuts with fx, whatever floats your boat. Do it at mixdown though, not when tracking, But live you are fighting an alien and hostile acoustic environment 9 times out of 10, and if you want to hear yourselves, and be heard you need to cut the clutter right out. Both on stage and off. A hint of something in a band that sounds really well balanced is more often than not actually enough. Go over the top and the experience of the punters will be damaged due to the inevitable volume war that follows. You all may be very lucky and have guitarists who are trained sound engineers and understand this stuff, or just have incredible understanding of their gear and how fx can change thing, and therefore when to use how much of what. I am sooo pleased for you if you do. But I suspect it may not always be the case![/quote] Cheers for the info! Plenty for me to be armed with at our practices and gigs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='475916' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:40 PM']You're absolutely right that it's possible to be technically gifted and musically dextrous without knowing squat about carving a tone. And vice-versa. But it's so much nicer for the punter when it all comes together in one package. Y'know what the problem is? Orchestras have a bloke who stands at the front and faces the musicians, so he's sort of hearing what the punters are hearing. If it doesn't sound nice, he sorts it out. Bands don't have those, and I think we should. Every band should hire a conductor. No need to thank me.[/quote] I think every band has an inbuilt conductor (or two) anyway. In most bands there's one or two members who make the majority of the decisions - in most [i]good[/i] bands, those are usually the guys who have a good idea of how stuff should sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='475892' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:20 PM']sorry, gotta disagree with that. If you are good player you are good player. If you spend ages messing about with amps then you also know about electronic sound. Doesn't mean you're a better player, just means you know how to use equipment. Conversely I have met sound men who can't play for toffee, but can get a good sound. What about acoustic stuff? Does that mean because somebody isn't using an amp then all of a sudden they become a worse player? Sorry if I sound a big facetious, I'm having one of them days [/quote] That's ok - this is what a "debate" is all about. What I meant was, a good player with a good sound is more effective than a good player with a poor sound. They may have the same technical ability but I know which one I would rather listen to. There are loads of good technical players out there but whose sound is very generic, or otherwise uninteresting. But if you pair that ability with a good sound, then you have the makings of a great player. All the great players (Clapton , SRV, Hendrix etc.) have strong, recognisable sounds and I would argue it's this as much as their technical ability that makes them stand out. Eddie Van Halen is an example - what many people like about his playing is not so much the notes he plays but the sound he has (and has worked hard to create). His sound is so important to his playing that it's even been give a name - the "brown" sound. Playing electric guitar is different to playing acoustic guitar for this very reason - an electric guitar has so many more tonal possibilities due to the amp/FX combinations available that there are so many more ways to screw up your sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny-lad Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='475892' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:20 PM']sorry, gotta disagree with that. If you are good player you are good player. If you spend ages messing about with amps then you also know about electronic sound. Doesn't mean you're a better player, just means you know how to use equipment. Conversely I have met sound men who can't play for toffee, but can get a good sound. What about acoustic stuff? Does that mean because somebody isn't using an amp then all of a sudden they become a worse player? Sorry if I sound a big facetious, I'm having one of them days [/quote] I think having good tone, in a live mix, is just as important as being a good player. IMO, it's what makes a good musician, as it's just as important to sound right in the mix as it is to play your parts effectively, put on a performance and so on. I think that there's a difference between someone who is a very technically proficient player and someone who is a good working musician with a view of the bigger picture ie. how the band sounds and how they fit in, instead of just how the individual sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 A band needs:- Players who are proficient enough to pull off what they are attempting with ease (aplomb even) Players committed enough to put in the work to get up to scratch with the material Players with a good idea of interaction with an audience Players who understand how to make the band as a whole unit sound good in a live situation Players with enough sense of the team to let their sound be a part of the inevitable whole. If you are missing any of those then you will be less good than you could be. The punters may not be able to identify why you arent as good as the band with all the above, but they will know which band is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfrog Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='BOD2' post='475929' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:51 PM']That's ok - this is what a "debate" is all about. What I meant was, a good player with a good sound is more effective than a good player with a poor sound. They may have the same technical ability but I know which one I would rather listen to. There are loads of good technical players out there but whose sound is very generic, or otherwise uninteresting. But if you pair that ability with a good sound, then you have the makings of a great player. All the great players (Clapton , SRV, Hendrix etc.) have strong, recognisable sounds and I would argue it's this as much as their technical ability that makes them stand out.[/quote] I agree when you put it like that. I'd say that those with a good sound are more individual and have thought about it. Still doesn't make them a better player per se, it makes them a better band member All imho of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cytania Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 When I bought an electric guitar last I made the mistake of picking a real ultra-clean machine*, real strong sound like a celestial harp. Would have been perfect for playing over ambient new-age stuff, however in a band context it utterly got lost next to a telecaster. Bedroom tone vs. band tone. I reckon all would be electric guitarists should get a cheap pod/multi-effect board and play, get all the silly stuff out yer system. Beware if tone-sculpting becomes your main occupation you should think about getting into synths! Clearly I wanted to retreat from sound-twiddling even more and found bass a blessed release. Getting a good band sound - endless subject. Main thing is for everyone to listen and work for a group sound. Sometimes I've been told to turn down other times I've been told I was the only audible part of the mix keeping a place-marker in the song... *Part exchanged for second bass, would be prog merchants PM me and I'll tell you where it now hangs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4000 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='475814' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:05 AM']I do some production occasionally, but I'm not sure that your guitar players would appreciate some random guy telling them how to set their amps up Yeah, actually I mainly did it for my benefit (I don't enjoy practicing if it doesn't sound right), although I would add that if your experience of live performance is playing to drunks who don't give a toss what you sound like, you may be playing the wrong gigs.[/quote] For many those are the only gigs they can get..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 This is a very interesting topic. (No sh!t, I hear you say). I'm gonna put forward the idea of getting someone (sound guy) to come to a rehearsal & mess about with all our stuff until he thinks it sounds right & we, as a band, are happy with the result. At present I've been trying to get as subby a sound as possible to get right under everything else so the 2 gitters only have to sort out space for the vocals & drums. But there is some songs that I like to get a mare funky sound on (using the moogs) & the gitters usually take the same space the minute they come in. Did a 3 piece on Monday there as lead Gitter couldn't make it & we sounded brilliant. Now if we could get him to shut up during the vocals & just play solos & occasional fills that would be sheer bliss. Chance of getting him to do this...... More chance of Bin laden offering to fund the rebuilding of the twin towers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='475817' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:06 AM']I actually believe that a good sound is the secret to a good groove. If you just play all the right notes in all the right places, it will probably still not groove. If you do that AND have a great sound, the pocket is yours and the music comes alive.[/quote] Correctamundo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I can relate to this as well with one of the bands I play with, see www.ludomix.com, the two guitarists have varying sounds, and one of them uses a POD, which also causes quite a lot of variations in his sound, and it can all get a bit frustrating... I think I'll mention it next time it gets a bit ropey. That said they know what they are doing playing and performance wise so it's just one aspect of what they do. My set up is based on having a good bass with a good amp, and knowing how to play...! It's a simple formula that works, I tend to steer clear of effects as I think on bass they can get lost in the mix in the live setting. However I have recently started using my EBS Wah One pedal and that really kicks ass live, it sounds huge, and I am thinking of getting my EBS Octabass in the mix as well, but on my gig last night I just relied on my Sei and my SWR Baby Baby blue combo and playing to get the job done and it worked. One tip I'll add is... TURN DOWN... it's amazing how music loses so much of its dynamic range when you are play at high volume, obviously if you are into extreme volume levels then fine, but lots of other musical styles will benefit from stripping things down and leaving lots of space, it'll just make those BIG choruses sounds even bigger when everyone joins in.... just a thought. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='475775' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:09 AM']I don't know how many bands do this, but I do know that none of the bands I know personally do it, either because it hasn't occurred to them or because they think that working on sound is gay or whatever, so most of them end up just playing volume wars and deafening themselves. Either way it was definitely worth it to me, and now we sound kickass. Bragging over.[/quote] Apart from our drummer who totally gets it, I used to set up our keyboard player's and guitarist's rigs at gigs for them. They know how to do it now. The entire keyboard set-up is mine (Nord Electro + Nord Lead 2X -> GK combo) and I pressured the guitarist into the rig he uses (vintage Matamp head + '80s Marshall 2x12, for bigger gigs, and my 6W Cornford Harlequin combo in the studio and for smaller gigs). I even researched and bought the vintage Electro Harmonix Golden Throat talkbox for him to use (he paid me back afterwards). If you care about your band's sound - and it's the kind of band where you really are the leader - it's worth going to these kinds of lengths. Recordings sound great. Live, it's rare that a soundman doesn't balls up all this planning and preparation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='475814' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:05 AM']I do some production occasionally, but I'm not sure that your guitar players would appreciate some random guy telling them how to set their amps up [/quote] Actually my chaps are not your average guitarist and they know they are wandering about in the dark a bit ... They both need a nudge to play their solos loud enough How rare is that? I'm a fan of an "effects" rehearsal where you just work out what effects you'll be using and then spend time setting them up and trying it in a band (albeit rehearsal) situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='476506' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:25 PM']I'm a fan of an "effects" rehearsal where you just work out what effects you'll be using and then spend time setting them up and trying it in a band (albeit rehearsal) situation.[/quote] Very useful. I once spent 4 hours setting up and tweaking my pedalboard before a pre-gig rehearsal. Thankfully it worked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Rich came over and tweaked my knobs for me. :blush: That was really helpful too as I didn't really understand some of the stuff I was using. Mark at Bass Direct is good too, even at a distance ... Maxrossell, you should write a leaflet ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_bass Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Me and our lead guitarist spend a lot of time discussing effects, tone, technique etc. Our drummer just bangs the hell out of everything and our other guitarist tends to dial in too much of whatever effect he is playing with at the time. We have since decided to arrange an extra "dial that tone in" practice, where all we'll do is muck around with the settings to get something that works well together. Now to find out if it works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='476537' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:44 PM']Maxrossell, you should write a leaflet ...[/quote] Ah, man, I have no idea how helpful that would be. Everyone has different gear, everyone wants a different sound. I'm mixing this record tomorrow and the assignment I've given the band is to bring in records that give examples of how they'd like their instruments to sound, just so I have some idea of what they're aiming for. I reckon it would take far better men than me a very very long time to put together a comprehensive guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB26354 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Yeah go on Max, tell us all how it's done! I've got my hand on my (volume) knob as I speak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='XB26354' post='476572' date='May 1 2009, 12:16 AM']Yeah go on Max, tell us all how it's done! I've got my hand on my (volume) knob as I speak...[/quote] Or you could grow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='urb' post='476433' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:12 PM']One tip I'll add is... TURN DOWN... it's amazing how music loses so much of its dynamic range when you are play at high volume, obviously if you are into extreme volume levels then fine, but lots of other musical styles will benefit from stripping things down and leaving lots of space, it'll just make those BIG choruses sounds even bigger when everyone joins in.... just a thought.[/quote] i've been saying this for ages but my band doesn't seem to get it at least the guitarist has turned his gain/volume down far enough now so the "boost" f/sw button actually has an effect -- previously it would do nothing except make it sound a bit brighter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I think the problem my band have in rehearsals is that they get a nice volume when they first set up & then the drummer has a warm up & everyone turns the noise level up. It then doesn't go back down afterwards. Admittedly, I have been at fault here too. A month ago I was a bit miffed at the loud volume levels so whapped the bass up a considerable ammount, so much so that the whole room was vibating from the panels in the ceiling to the glass in the door, left a smile on my face It was a counter productive session music wise but I think the gitter got the idea of how we feel when he's constantly too loud so I'm hoping that side of it is productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.