hearing notes, intervals also practice schedule

[juayman]

Hello all,

A) This is only my second post on this forum (the first was my introduction). Anyway I was wondering if anyone had any advice about hearing notes? My understanding is that it is obviously a very good skill to have but also that it is not all that common that people can do it. Anyway what are the easiest ways to learn doing it?

I have a one hour daily practice session and I am attempting to hear notes by simply playing all the C's for about 3 minutes each day. I will try and "feel" the note then compare it to another notes, etc. I will then move onto A's and then onto D's until I have the full set.

Is this the best way of doing it? Also should there be a specific order?

I have been learning the intervals however the problem I have is a) testing myself because you know...I know where I am putting my fingers when I play and I don't have a recording devise. I am kind of wondering where this fits into the bigger scheme of playing (I know there is a purpose behind it but I am not sure what that purpose is at this moment in time)

C) As mentioned my practice is currently one hour per day (sometimes 10-20 mins longer). I aim for 7 days a week and usually achieve atleast 6 days. I keep a kind of diary where I simply note the amount of time practiced and then set out my schedule which is:

* Playing 2 notes all across the fretboard from memory (i.e. A's and F#'s)..I know the fretboard very well because of this
*Warm-up
*intervals and "hearing notes"
*an exercise from my text book (just a beginners guide to bass type thing)
*Then I continue learning a song (generally learning a song improving it over 1-2 weeks)
*Then playing other songs I already know.

Also I have a guitarist friend he is very good been playing for 4 years now. We have jammed a few times but this slacked off because he is lazy. I was thinking of starting this up again one time a week to improve my playing.

Eventually want to get upto the standard where I can be playing in a band possibly doing my own stuff (I have come up with a few of my own parts already).

I realise this is a massive post but I wanted to get your opinions on these things I'm thinking about.

Many thanks in advance

[Eight]

[quote name='juayman' post='461758' date='Apr 14 2009, 03:25 AM'] I have been learning the intervals however the problem I have is a) testing myself because you know...I know where I am putting my fingers when I play and I don't have a recording devise.[/quote]
Lol. Yeah that ain't going to work - pretty easy to guess intervals when you know what notes you're playing.

Try - [url="http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html[/url]

[juayman]

[quote name='Eight' post='461869' date='Apr 14 2009, 10:47 AM']Lol. Yeah that ain't going to work - pretty easy to guess intervals when you know what notes you're playing.

Try - [url="http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html[/url][/quote]

Many thanks for this link. I am getting about 33% or so on first try. It can be frustrating at times but great when you get a few correct in a row lol

Cheers

[neepheid]

[quote name='juayman' post='462604' date='Apr 14 2009, 11:43 PM']Many thanks for this link. I am getting about 33% or so on first try. It can be frustrating at times but great when you get a few correct in a row lol

Cheers[/quote]

The biggest baw-ache is getting the interval right but the major/minor wrong. Finding out what a tritone is might aid my understanding also.

[SteveK]

Not sure what you mean by "hearing notes". Perfect pitch perhaps? If so, can't help.

However, A simple trick to learning intervals is to associate the first 2 notes of a tune that you know to an interval.

For example: I'm sure that you know the theme from Jaws, the bit when the shark's about to strike, well, that's your minor 2nd

For Major 2nd you could use first to notes from Eastenders (the soap)

Now apply your own tunes to all the intervals.

You may have difficulty in finding one for Major 6th...My Way (the song made famous by Ol Blue Eyes) should do it.

Even nursery rhymes have their uses: Pop Goes The Weasel = Major 3rd

HTH

Steve

I should add that with time and practice you won't think in terms of nursery rhymes or soap tunes, you'll think "Oh, that's a minor 3rd" or "that'll be a perfect 5th then" and immediately apply it to your instrument.

Edited April 15, 2009 by SteveK

[The Funk]

[quote name='SteveK' post='462983' date='Apr 15 2009, 01:48 PM']You may have difficulty in finding one for Major 6th...My Way (the song made famous by Ol Blue Eyes) should do it.[/quote]

Or the bass line from [i]My Girl[/i] for the reverse, ie. Major 6th-Root.

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' post='462983' date='Apr 15 2009, 01:48 PM']However, A simple trick to learning intervals is to associate the first 2 notes of a tune that you know to an interval.[/quote]

Cracking tip! Nice one, Steve, thanks

[GreeneKing]

I play interval as a warm up but don't really listen to them

That link was great, if only at showing me how pants I am at recognising intervals.

[XB26354]

Interesting replies, I thought I'd share my experiences as a player and teacher...

The trick of learning intervals through the first two notes of a melody only works to show you an example of the interval. It doesn't really have a benefit when developing your ear, because you are hearing that interval over one harmonic sequence only.

e.g. Eastenders is a major second as part of a major chord. If used as the 6th and 7th of the melodic minor it will sound completely different against the harmony.

Perfect pitch is amazing but in reality is a real pain every time someone plays something slightly flat/sharp. Relative pitch (relating one note or chord to adjacent notes or chords) is the important skill to develop.

Start by learning the major and melodic minor scales. Much of modern harmony comes from these two scales, so if you play each scale up and down, inside and out, then practice them in seconds, thirds, fourths etc. until you know them inside out. Then try transcribing some very basic melodies.
Get a keyboard or access to one. Play basic major and minor triads in root position and all inversions in different keys, very slowly. Try to hear the differences between them. Go back and learn the diminished and whole tone scales and triads. Repeat with 4-note, 5-note chords etc. with extensions (intervals above the octave). Then go back to the simple melody and work out the chords. I cannot stress how important learning the melody and harmony is to developing your ear.
If you're interested in jazz everything there is to learn is there to be transcribed. Maybe start with something like Kind of Blue, with static harmony and simple melodies. Transcribe [i]without[/i] your bass (unless you just cannot get a particular passage), then learn to play the transcription - it is not enough just to hear it, you need to hear it through your bass.

Learning all the F's, G's etc on your bass is great for learning the fingerboard but has limited effect on eartraining (except for the timbre of different octaves).

Unless I'm going mad the bass line to [i]My Girl[/i] starts perfect 5th-root in C major

Cheers
Mat

[XB26354]

... oh and one of the best examples of a complete scale is the C major pentatonic in the intro guitar part of... My Girl!

[lowdown]

[quote name='XB26354' post='463340' date='Apr 15 2009, 07:43 PM']Unless I'm going mad the bass line to [i]My Girl[/i] starts perfect 5th-root in C major

Cheers
Mat[/quote]

No you aint going mad...Unless JJ played it wrong...

Garry

[tonybassplayer]

Great thread, please keep sending in the examples

[Zoe_BillySheehan]

[quote name='Eight' post='461869' date='Apr 14 2009, 10:47 AM']Lol. Yeah that ain't going to work - pretty easy to guess intervals when you know what notes you're playing.

Try - [url="http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id90_en.html[/url][/quote]

quite enjoying trying that
took me a little bit to get it,
but now i can get about half, sometimes a little more,
will save this link


Z
x

[The Funk]

[quote name='The Funk' post='463040' date='Apr 15 2009, 02:50 PM']Or the bass line from [i]My Girl[/i] for the reverse, ie. Major 6th-Root.[/quote]

[quote name='XB26354' post='463340' date='Apr 15 2009, 07:43 PM']Unless I'm going mad the bass line to [i]My Girl[/i] starts perfect 5th-root in C major [/quote]

[quote name='lowdown' post='463664' date='Apr 16 2009, 09:24 AM']No you aint going mad...Unless JJ played it wrong... [/quote]

This shows two things, which are not mutually exclusive:
1. how rubbish my ear is
2. how long it is since I've listened to or played [i]My Girl[/i].

Homework for tonight: listen to and play [i]My Girl[/i].

[SteveK]

[quote name='XB26354' post='463340' date='Apr 15 2009, 07:43 PM']Interesting replies, I thought I'd share my experiences as a player and teacher...

The trick of learning intervals through the first two notes of a melody only works to show you an example of the interval. It doesn't really have a benefit when developing your ear, because you are hearing that interval over one harmonic sequence only.[/quote]
I disagree. It's surprising how easy (with a little perseverance) it is to apply the method to other modes and scales.

The trick that I suggest is not meant as an alternative to the more "traditional" methods, but, as a simple and surprisingly useful addition... something for the student to have fun with.

Associating a tune to an interval is something I did in my formative years (musically speaking) and I found it invaluable. You don't have to have your instrument with you, You can hum the intervals to yourself while out walking, sitting on a train (first find an empty carriage though ) knowing that you have them correct, getting to know the sound that they make.
After a while, when listening to music you'll know where a melody starts and where it goes, and then be able to apply it to your instrument.

Of course, this does assume that the student is practising all the more mundane stuff as well.


Steve

[XB26354]

[quote name='SteveK' post='464568' date='Apr 16 2009, 11:47 PM']I disagree. It's surprising how easy (with a little perseverance) it is to apply the method to other modes and scales.

The trick that I suggest is not meant as an alternative to the more "traditional" methods, but, as a simple and surprisingly useful addition... something for the student to have fun with.

Associating a tune to an interval is something I did in my formative years (musically speaking) and I found it invaluable. You don't have to have your instrument with you, You can hum the intervals to yourself while out walking, sitting on a train (first find an empty carriage though ) knowing that you have them correct, getting to know the sound that they make.
After a while, when listening to music you'll know where a melody starts and where it goes, and then be able to apply it to your instrument.

Of course, this does assume that the student is practising all the more mundane stuff as well.


Steve[/quote]

I think you're missing the point about the underlying harmony. Learning an interval based on a melody you know doesn't work when you hear it in a different context. For example, a minor sixth from C to Ab could be considered root-minor 6th, indicating Cm harmony. It could also be part of a C7alt sound (b13). As C to G# it is an augmented 5th and can be part of a whole tone scale. As Ab to C inverted (or not) it could be Ab major harmony etc. I've lost count of the times a minor sixth didn't sound like a minor sixth until I'd taken the harmony into account. The method you suggest above is a bit of fun, but I stand by my statement (borne out by playing and teaching experience) that it doesn't really have a use in the real world. After all the jaws theme (minor 2nd E-F) is meaningless without the harmony. Could be E-F in a major scale - totally different sound and feeling.

[woodster]

A perfect 4th is the first line of the nursery rhyme 'London's Burning'

[mcgraham]

+1 XB. Whilst you can 'get away' with just knowing intervals for transcribing or hearing things, knowing their context and how they sound over their context is vital. The melody works with the musical backdrop to create the overall feel.

A good exercise I use is to play something exceedingly random/atonal and record it. Then, without analysing what I just played too much, try to play something else over it to create a context and make it 'work'. A simple example is to play two notes a semitone apart (say F# and G - say on guitar). In and of itself without context it sounds verrrry dissonant. What if I throw in the D below that? It becomes a Dadd4 (or a very select D11 chord), very modern sounding. What if I throw in a B instead? it becomes a Bm(b6), very sinister and unresolved. What about an E an octave below... Context gives the melody meaning.

Mark

[Bilbo]

I think people are talking about different things here and you are both right.

An interval is an interval. The melodic difference between an C and an E is either a third up of a sixth down. Whatever else is going on, that is a given fact. If you change the harmony by adding a third or fourth note, you are changing the context not the interval. The OP asked about hearing notes and intervals, not harmonic contexts. Obviously, the addition of a different bass note changes the context/sound of the overall chord but it does not change the interval between the first two notes, only their relationship with the new note. The relationship between C and E if C is the root is obviously different if C is the fifth and E the seventh of an F chord but the interval between C & E remains the same.

Learning this stuff is about increments. If the OP is learning the difference between and 3rd and a 4th, throwing a melodic minor chord scale reharmonised in all the keys and asking him to play it without a bass in his hands is probably a bit much and will intimidate rather than facilitate learning at this stage.

[mcgraham]

I was going to say something along the same lines, but had to disagree with my initial position.

I agree the OP was asking about hearing these intervals, and ultimately an interval is an interval. End of. As such one can recognise intervals regardless of context, but they go hand in hand, and sometimes one is recognisable before the other. If he just wants to work out melody, then I would agree, an understanding of context could be a little too much info to bother with.

However, if he's wanting to work out why something sounds the way it does, or why 'that' note works there, then context is very important. And IMO that should be the ultimate goal. Even if he's just playing in a major key, that's still a backdrop upon which the notes are placed. If he only wants to play in a major key then context ain't such a big deal.

Mark

[Bilbo]

I agree 100%, Mark, but I don't think he is there yet.

I always remember my third year O level biology teacher, a Dr Suter, who started the year's biology class by saying 'remember what I told you last term about photosynthesis? Well, it wasn't strictly true'!!

I recall this lesson because it remained with me as an example of the need to pace learning so as to make informtion digestable. If you gave a beginner Rimsky Korsakov's 'Principle's of Orchestration' at their first piano lesson, s/he'd run a mile!!

[Eight]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='464866' date='Apr 17 2009, 11:58 AM']If you gave a beginner Rimsky Korsakov's 'Principle's of Orchestration' at their first piano lesson, s/he'd run a mile!![/quote]
I bought that about two weeks after starting piano... still haven't managed to get through it all these years later.

[mcgraham]

You're totally right, best to keep the info pallatable and pitch it at the right level. Interesting discussion though!

Mark

[XB26354]

I only mentioned harmony because others were advising recognising intervals from familiar melodies (which are based on harmony, right?)
My initial post also had about a year's worth of work as a general guide of how to develop the ear.
Obviously ear training, like any other aspect of music, needs to be paced to the learner.

[Mikey D]

Just learn this :



[quote name='Django Bates']This is a minor second and
This is a perfect fourth
This is a major second and
This is a perfect fifth
This is a major sixth and
This is a minor sixth

Minor third, Minor third
Major third, Major third
Unison

This a major seventh and
This is minor seventh and
Here's an augmented fourth and
This is an octave

That's the Interval Song
That's the Interval Song....[/quote]