Neodymium Vs. Classic Cabinets....

[DrVet]

Hi all,

I wonder what is U're opinion on this matter... NEO Vs. Classic

Are neo cabs just practical (small, light, loud...), or do they have also a versatil tone...etc.

Is it a matter of taste regarding the classic cabs...or is just the price (again, Neo cabs have better prices, when it comes to more W... )

Cheers!

F.

[Gunsfreddy2003]

There seems to be some real differences between the sound from Neo speakers in general. I tried the EBS stuff and just could not get on with it at all and I know others who have found the same and use the EBS Pro Line cabs which do use traditional speakers instead.

Having said that I did end up buying an Epifani UL210 and have to say that I love the sound from it - so much for something that weighs so little!

My agenda was to replace my old cabs which weighed a ton with something that was much lighter and had a great sound. If you can find that from Neo cabs then of course they have to be a better option.

[quote name='DrVet' post='461016' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:05 AM']Hi all,

I wonder what is U're opinion on this matter... NEO Vs. Classic

Are neo cabs just practical (small, light, loud...), or do they have also a versatil tone...etc.

Is it a matter of taste regarding the classic cabs...or is just the price (again, Neo cabs have better prices, when it comes to more W... )

Cheers!

F.[/quote]

Edited April 13, 2009 by Gunsfreddy2003

[Hamster]

Apart from the lighter speakers, there's also less structural support for the speakers in the cab so the actual cab will be lighter too.

I remember a post somewhere about there being a slight bump in the upper midrange frequency response with Neo magnets but I'm pretty sure my ears won't hear that!

[lozbass]

I have just one neo cab - an Epi ul112 - and after years of conventional cabs (4x10, 12s, 15s, 18s, folded horns, exponential horns - you name it...), I'd say the principal benefit is weight reduction. Beyond this however, cabinet and speaker design has come on a long way and I find the ul112 to be very tight, articulate, airy, focused and even reasonably loud and punchy when it needs to be. I can't offer a definitive answer but I'd suspect that if you took out the neo driver from a modern cab and dropped in a high quality conventional speaker, you wouldn't notice a great deal of difference (other than weight). Maybe somebody's tried this and can confirm/contradict?

[Delberthot]

My Schroeder 1212L is the first neo speaker cab I have had.

For years I went through mainly Trace and Ashdown cabs and the main thing about those is that they are bloody heavy. They're bigger as well so I found that they produced more bottom end.

The things I love about the 1212L are that it is light, which was one of the main factors for buying one. It is very punchy - don't know enough to tell you why - it could be the small size or the angled 12" or some kind of mystical third thing. It can go very loud - in fact much louder than the 2 Ashdown ABM 115s that it replaced.

It could also be the mid hump that people talk about that makes them sound different but I think that's what makes them louder as you don't need as many watts to amplify those frequencies as you do to generate the bottom end.

This could also be complete rubbish but its my take on it anyway.

[Marcus]

I used a Mark Bass Rig for a while....




The set up was Loud as hell..... and It did cut through really well, but it was loud in a way that Hitting a dustbin lid is loud ! There was very little body to the note (IMHO) I loved the SA450, but the cabs left something to be desired in my experience.

I think with Bass..... unfortunately to get the best in tone (live) you need big heavey cabinets with big heavey magnets !! The laws of Physics can be stretched but not broken !!

[chris_b]

[quote name='Marcus' post='461083' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 AM']....I loved the SA450, but the cabs left something to be desired in my experience. I think with Bass..... unfortunately to get the best in tone (live) you need big heavey cabinets with big heavey magnets !! The laws of Physics can be stretched but not broken !![/quote]
Maybe you've discovered the Markbass cab "thing" that gets mentioned a lot!
Sorry, but the weight of the cab has nothing to do with the laws of physics. If you buy "good" neo cabs, I have Epifani and Bergantino, they can beat any cab that I've heard for tone, and weight.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Marcus' post='461083' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 AM']I think with Bass..... unfortunately to get the best in tone (live) you need big heavey cabinets with big heavey magnets !! The laws of Physics can be stretched but not broken !![/quote]

Nope. The laws of physics dictate that to get big bass sounds you need large cabinets. They do not need to be heavy, they just need to be big.

Alex

[DrVet]

Oh yeah......maybe I should have said:

"Practicality Vs. Taste"

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='461096' date='Apr 13 2009, 06:21 AM']they just need to be big.

Alex[/quote]Not necessarily. Hoffman's Iron Law allows you to go low and loud while remaining small, but at the cost of sensitivity, which means you need more power and a driver capable of using it. OTOH all other aspects being equal a larger cab will go lower, and the number one defect with most cabs is that they are too small.
As for the 'Neo Debate', it's been said before and will be said again ad infinitum by those who's business it is to know that the magnet material in and of itself has no bearing on the sound qualities of a driver. However, neo does allow transducer engineers to come up with combinations of driver specs previously unattainable, and those specs can result in different results than were possible prior to neo. But those results vary from driver to driver, just as results with ceramic magnets vary from driver to driver. Any and all blanket statements regarding specific tone qualities of neo have no basis in fact. In short, some neo drivers do sound different, not because they have to, but because they can.

[Monz]

Sits back and opens popcorn

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='461204' date='Apr 13 2009, 01:48 PM']Not necessarily. Hoffman's Iron Law allows you to go low and loud while remaining small, but at the cost of sensitivity, which means you need more power and a driver capable of using it. OTOH all other aspects being equal a larger cab will go lower, and the number one defect with most cabs is that they are too small.[/quote]

Indeed. There a select few cabs that can do big bottom at high SPL from a smaller enclosure but amongst 99% of cabs sold the size matters thing holds true. My forthcoming Big Baby will be one of these rare exceptions.

Alex

[Hamster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='461204' date='Apr 13 2009, 01:48 PM']Not necessarily. Hoffman's Iron Law allows you to go low and loud while remaining small, but at the cost of sensitivity, which means you need more power and a driver capable of using it.[/quote]

So I can see that being true with the ACME's for example? - smallish and lightish but with an excellent low bass (so I'm told) but they need a big amp and a lot of watts to drive them.

Is there a market for a very small and light cab that has tremendous bottom end but with 'shockingly' low sensitivity?

I would be quite happy to keep cabs small and light but with a huge bottom end AND carry a powerful but light amp around.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Hamster' post='461219' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:05 AM']Is there a market for a very small and light cab that has tremendous bottom end but with 'shockingly' low sensitivity?[/quote]The problem is that the qualities required of a driver to run to low frequencies at high output in a small box also result in a very low midrange output, demanding a midrange driver; the Acme cabs are an example. That adds to the cost of the cab, as do woofers with extremely high excursion and power capacities, which runs counter to the desires of both the consumer and manufacturer, both wanting to spend as little as possible.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='461234' date='Apr 13 2009, 02:23 PM']The problem is that the qualities required of a driver to run to low frequencies at high output in a small box also result in a very low midrange output, demanding a midrange driver; the Acme cabs are an example. That adds to the cost of the cab, as do woofers with extremely high excursion and power capacities, which runs counter to the desires of both the consumer and manufacturer, both wanting to spend as little as possible.[/quote]

That Ampeg isobaric cab with clamshell 15s and 2 10s on top, with modern lightweight drivers, would that be awesome? Its main problem was dreadful weight I recall, the 10s do the midrange, the 15s do the low, and the neo does the light.

[Hamster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='461234' date='Apr 13 2009, 02:23 PM']The problem is that the qualities required of a driver to run to low frequencies at high output in a small box also result in a very low midrange output, demanding a midrange driver; the Acme cabs are an example. That adds to the cost of the cab, as do woofers with extremely high excursion and power capacities, which runs counter to the desires of both the consumer and manufacturer, both wanting to spend as little as possible.[/quote]

What we need is someone who really knows about self-build cabinet design to come up with a light and compact design that pumps out buckets of deep bass using the above spec bass and midrange drivers. I'd pay for the plans and build it myself to keep the costs down!

[SteveO]

[quote name='Hamster' post='461295' date='Apr 13 2009, 05:01 PM']What we need is someone who really knows about self-build cabinet design to come up with a light and compact design that pumps out buckets of deep bass using the above spec bass and midrange drivers. I'd pay for the plans and build it myself to keep the costs down! [/quote]

lol. Strangely enough I've just received plans from Bill (thanks for the super-fast service by the way ) and was thinking about looking for super lightweight neo speakers with the relevant specs rather than looking for the ones recommended in the plans. Am I being a bit silly? at a reported 17 kg they should be light enough anyway. I don't want to have to put bricks on top to stop them migrating across the stage

[alexclaber]

[quote name='SteveO' post='461314' date='Apr 13 2009, 04:29 PM']lol. Strangely enough I've just received plans from Bill (thanks for the super-fast service by the way ) and was thinking about looking for super lightweight neo speakers with the relevant specs rather than looking for the ones recommended in the plans. Am I being a bit silly? at a reported 17 kg they should be light enough anyway. I don't want to have to put bricks on top to stop them migrating across the stage [/quote]

Most of the recommended drivers for Bill's designs are lightweight neo ones. And there's a reason they are recommended!

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Hamster' post='461295' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:01 AM']What we need is someone who really knows about self-build cabinet design to come up with a light and compact design that pumps out buckets of deep bass using the above spec bass and midrange drivers. I'd pay for the plans and build it myself to keep the costs down! [/quote]
It's not that simple. You can stick a 1kW capable twelve with 15mm xmax into a 1 cu ft box and get a lot of bottom, but drivers with those capabilities are not the least bit inexpensive, so the advantages over a larger but far less expensive cab aren't worth it even for the average DIY builder.

[far0n]

[quote name='Marcus' post='461083' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 AM']I used a Mark Bass Rig for a while....




The set up was Loud as hell..... and It did cut through really well, but it was loud in a way that Hitting a dustbin lid is loud ! There was very little body to the note (IMHO) I loved the SA450, but the cabs left something to be desired in my experience.

I think with Bass..... unfortunately to get the best in tone (live) you need big heavey cabinets with big heavey magnets !! The laws of Physics can be stretched but not broken !![/quote]

Oooh, I've seen that big bass rig before !



I've still got the SA450, cracking amp. As for the cabs, they were loud as hell but in a weird kind of way that you couldn't hear. Stand any further than 3-4 feet away from the cabs and it was weird, like someone filling your ears with cotton wool. You could tell it was loud by the vibrations but you just couldn't hear what you were playing. Very weird I thought. So I've eventually settled on two Eden 210XLTs. Looking forward to cranking them up shortly

Faron

[SteveO]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='461333' date='Apr 13 2009, 06:06 PM']Most of the recommended drivers for Bill's designs are lightweight neo ones. And there's a reason they are recommended!

Alex[/quote]

Ahh. thanks for the correction. I was looking at the Thomann site for the Eminence Deltalite 2510 and as there was no mention of neo in the ad then I wrongly assumed that they weren't, I would have thought it was a strong selling point. Oh well, going to buy some wood tomorrow

[noisedude]

[quote name='far0n' post='461350' date='Apr 13 2009, 05:36 PM']I've still got the SA450, cracking amp. As for the cabs, they were loud as hell but in a weird kind of way that you couldn't hear. Stand any further than 3-4 feet away from the cabs and it was weird, like someone filling your ears with cotton wool. You could tell it was loud by the vibrations but you just couldn't hear what you were playing. Very weird I thought. So I've eventually settled on two Eden 210XLTs. Looking forward to cranking them up shortly

Faron[/quote]
That's usually cured by pushing your mids a bit more though, isn't it? I've had this problem with loads of amps in loads of venues and usually it's just because the bassist has cranked his top and bottom and effectively scooped out the mids. Personally I tend to push the lower mids up a little and it makes me doubly audible.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Gunsfreddy2003' post='461028' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:38 AM']There seems to be some real differences between the sound from Neo speakers in general. I tried the EBS stuff and just could not get on with it at all and I know others who have found the same and use the EBS Pro Line cabs which do use traditional speakers instead.[/quote]

Yup. I use trad speakers having originally coming from the Neos. To me, the non Neos just sounded better. That's not saying that they are best for everybody - there are always those people who prefer the sound of the Neos. (and again, I'm only comparing the EBS cabs). Some people prefer the sound of neos - I don't understand the physics or care to find out (I'm not that interested) why they do sound different... but there you go.

I always find it interesting when looking at the pros - especially the EBS guys - they tend to use the non Neo varient. (But then again, they probably don't have to carry them...)