paul_c2 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, simon1964 said: Yes, if the band shares the fees for gigs amongst themselves they will almost certainly be a partnership in law. The sting there is that means that all band members are equally, and jointly, liable. Another good reason to have Public Liability Cover. That's not the legal definition of being a partnership though. It is: "two or more individuals ‘carrying on a business in common with a view of profit’." At this stage it is worth clarifying exactly the type of situation the band Chienmortbb (OP) is in, because I imagine many bands will have been set up WITHOUT a "view of profit" but they might end up in a situation where they're paid for small pub/club gigs. Clearly some bands could be viewed like that, so WOULD be legally interpreted as a partnership. But then its also possible that in setting a band up, its done as a Limited Liability Partnership. This wouldn't be incidental or presumed, the members would have subscribed their names to an incorporation document. When we took our band from a non-gigging bunch of people who just happened to meet up at the same time each week in a scout hut, to a properly registered entity which did (sometimes quite high) paying gigs, we went the route to establish a constitution, bank account, membership of Making Music etc and it was a somewhat counterintuitive, definite process we had to go through with a lot of admin. All band members were very aware at the time of what was going on. ETA In terms of insurance, I can't imagine any insurer offering PLI without some type of underlying admin or statement which is agreed to, which clarifies the legal status of the thing they're insuring, since its not a simple case of insuring an individual. IIRC Musicians Union don't do PLI for groups either. Edited April 5, 2022 by paul_c2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassfinger Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 But the MU do provide cover for individuals working as part of a group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c2 Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 15 minutes ago, Bassfinger said: But the MU do provide cover for individuals working as part of a group. Indeed they do - for the situations where its an individual who requires it. For example a solo act; or a music teacher, or when you're depping; or when you're in a group which isn't a "partnership" or some other legal being of its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lozkerr Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 On 01/04/2022 at 23:55, wateroftyne said: I've got PAT stickers on my stuff that I bought from eBay just in case, but I've never been asked. I've spent the afternoon PAT testing a load of secondhand gear bought off fleabay that's having its first outing next week. Three kettle leads had line and neutral reversed inside moulded-on plugs. Needless to say, they're now in the bin with the offending plugs cut off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb625 Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 2 hours ago, lozkerr said: I've spent the afternoon PAT testing a load of secondhand gear bought off fleabay that's having its first outing next week. Three kettle leads had line and neutral reversed inside moulded-on plugs. Needless to say, they're now in the bin with the offending plugs cut off. Sadly, that's not rare. I do our gear, as I also look after the PA stuff. It made sense for me to get a tester (didn't bother with the 1/2 day course) as I do the testing for some theatre stuff as well. We sometimes have acts coming into us and in that case, we don't ask them for anything, but is something looks a bit off, we'll have a look at it for them. As others have said, the legal requirement is for it to be safe, not for it to be tested, no matter how many stickers are on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted April 25, 2022 Author Share Posted April 25, 2022 Interesting, what testers are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 14 hours ago, lozkerr said: I've spent the afternoon PAT testing a load of secondhand gear bought off fleabay that's having its first outing next week. Three kettle leads had line and neutral reversed inside moulded-on plugs. Needless to say, they're now in the bin with the offending plugs cut off. Can you post the name of the seller so they can be avoided? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb625 Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 32 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said: Interesting, what testers are you using? I don't have it with me, but I think it's a Seaward model. There's also an app you can download (PAT mobile) which helps you keep a track of everything you've tested and when the re-test dates are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted April 25, 2022 Author Share Posted April 25, 2022 On the subject of IEC leads, the standard is for 10 amperes but many sold now are only 5 Amperes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 (edited) There really should be a sticky for this, it comes up so often. The PAT test basically gives you proof that you've periodically inspected your equipment. Most people will already have PLI if they're a home owner but it could be difficult to prove the activity of playing in a band isn't a business activity. It may be worth talking to your insurer and get them to write to you to say they'll cover you. Similar to how you notify them if you have possessions over £1000. Edited April 25, 2022 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 (edited) IMO al bands should have PLI that specifically covers the activities of the band. As soon as a band is playing in a public space then there are endless eventualitites, no matter how unlikely they may seem, that could see the band and its members liable for damage to people or property. Edited April 25, 2022 by mrtcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, mrtcat said: IMO al bands should have PLI that specifically covers the activities of the band. As soon as a band is playing in a public space then there are endless eventualitites, no matter how unlikely they may seem, that could see the band and its members liable for damage to people or property. Completely agree. Our guitarist and singer haven't got much money or property if we were to be sued. It would all come down on me and the drummer. PLI is essential IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 On 01/04/2022 at 17:23, Chienmortbb said: I was asked for both Public Liability insurance and PAT testing certificates for all out gear for a social club gig yesterday. It was explained that the Club in question had just changed Insurers and it was a condition of the ne policy. Sounds a bit like changing from Fully Comp to Third Party Fire and Theft on a car to me. Is this common? Is it a new thing? Is it reasonable? It means the club has reduced the cost of its own insurance by not covering any third parties, ie the bands or other entertainers. So if your PA falls over and hits someone etc, your insurance would be paying out rather than the club's insurance. If you don't have insurance the you'll be stumping up the cash out of your own pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 You would then probably have to incorporate the band as a separate business identity. That's a lot of messing around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 1 minute ago, chris_b said: It means the club has reduced the cost of its own insurance by not covering any third parties, ie the bands or other entertainers. So if your PA falls over and hits someone etc, your insurance would be paying out rather than the club's insurance. If you don't have insurance the you'll be stumping up the cash out of your own pocket. The club will be protecting themselves. Anyone injured on their property is covered by their insurance. The club insurers are reducing their exposure to risk by making sure 3rd parties liable to cause injury are covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lozkerr Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 11 hours ago, fretmeister said: Can you post the name of the seller so they can be avoided? I can't remember what came from who now and I don't want to libel anyone, sorry - I bought the gear a while ago from several different people and all the electric string that came with it was put into the same box to await test and inspection. Plus, even if I did know who they were, it might be unfair to blame the seller as a lot of the cables accompanied double-insulated lights, where switching line and neutral wouldn't even be noticed unless a PAT test was done. I guess the lesson is that the copper's ABC mantra should always apply to used electrical gear bought off tinterwebz - Accept nothing, Believe nobody and Check everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lozkerr Posted April 25, 2022 Share Posted April 25, 2022 12 hours ago, Chienmortbb said: Interesting, what testers are you using? Mine is a Martindale HPAT400 - a simple pass/fail tester. I did think about getting a more expensive model, but given that it would only be used for our single-phase band gear, a simple yes/no seemed sufficient. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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