molan Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've got a reasonably flash wedding gig tomorrow (Saturday) & the organiser has just let slip that the venue we're playing in has a number of difficult sound problems! First off it's a huge converted barn with high vaulted ceilings and a flagstone floor so it's going to be very reverby. Secondly the wedding party is only about 100 people & the venue will seat 250 so there's not going to be a lot of bodies to soak up the sound. Thirdly - and by far the biggest pain in the ass - it has a very sensitive sound limiter that trips all the power on stage if set off. I've played in venues with limiters before and it's generally been higher frequency stuff that's set them off but the organiser has said that this one is often tripped by deep bass volume. So - I'm looking for advice on general sound settings so that I get a decent out front sound without tripping the limiter all the time. I'll be going through the PA so there'll be plenty of external sound reinforcement. My options in terms of stage kit are: Epifani PS600 with an Epi UL310 Epi 600 with a pair (or one) Bergantino AE 1x12's Baby Genz-Benz Shuttle 3.0 combo with the 1x10 speaker My original plan was to use the Epi with the 3x10 because the room is large. My sound guy is suggesting maybe I try to use the Shuttle purely as a stage monitor & let him handle all foh sound. My worry with this was that the bass is going to be very thin with such a small on stage presence. My vague compromise was to take the 2 Bergs but probably only use one (with the second just being used to raise the first one higher). I have an Auralex so I'll take that for a bit of added isolation. Any advice greatly appreciated around rigs and also general sound settings. I tend to leave things pretty flat in terms of eq but it sounds like this place might need some assistance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) +1 on the auralex .. That will help. If it's anything like the rooms I've played in with a sound limiter it won't matter what you take, you are bugg3red unless your volume is really low. You might ask gently of you can bypass the limiter power supply but then everyone will be in trouble if they say yes and you cause a noise nusance and you get found out by the Environmental Health people. The limiter will be there for a reason - like the neighbours have complained - it won't be there just to annoy bass players. The show has to go on whatever the problems, especially for a wedding and at this notice, so all you can realistically do is play the gig, sus the sound limiter and work within its parameters. Explain the situation to the bride, groom and both mothers in law and do your best. Good luck PS add "Sorry but we don't play any rooms with sound limiters that cut the power to the stage. Please check with your organiser before confirming your booking" to your contract. Edited February 27, 2009 by OldGit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Go with the sound guy - minimum stage volume and let him stress about the limiter. With a small rig you won't be throwing loads of lows around, which gives him a much better starting point. The questiion is, can the other members of your band understand the situation...and act accordingly? Good luck BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I just find a plug off stage and run a long cable to it. Not usually an advocate of flagrant law breaking, but on this I feel that the miserable twats of the world are having their way so f*** em. The chances of a complaint resulting in officers knocking on your door are slim.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='420817' date='Feb 27 2009, 12:42 PM']Explain the situation to the bride, groom and both mothers in law and do your best.[/quote] Generally good advice... BUT In my experience, most of the time, no amount of explanation will make up for them being unhappy at what you give them, (usually as they don't understand) and if they want it rowdy you're going to lose.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Go to B+Q and buy the longest extensions they have and plug into unlimited power. Sound limiters are one thing but when they haven't even bothered to tell you in advance. As for the actual building, I don't think there's a massive amount you can do. Just make sure you allow plenty of time for a sound-check so you can set up as well as you can. Sound checks at weddings can be tricky too if it's the same room used all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='420827' date='Feb 27 2009, 12:53 PM']I just find a plug off stage and run a long cable to it. Not usually an advocate of flagrant law breaking, but on this I feel that the miserable twats of the world are having their way so f*** em. The chances of a complaint resulting in officers knocking on your door are slim....[/quote] -1 Last time we did that (not a wedding) the hall manager and tech came up to us after and said "do that again an we'll never have you back here". It's a very nice venue and we didn't trip the sensor anyway as it was set sensibly for our moderate volume levels. The venue people have much too much at stake to risk it and it's not really for a band to say "Bugg3r your legal problems, we want to sound nice" even if it means the gig is slightly less nice sounding. And you just can't risk a big row between the band and the the venue people upsetting someone's wedding event. Molan can't get out of the gig now so he'll just have to prove how professional he and the band are and deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfrog Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 just to echo the "there's nowt you can really do" comments. +1 on the explain to the bride and groom about the fact that there is a sound limiter and chances are to get it loud enough for people to enjoy it will trip. Then just play. Not much else you can do I'm afraid. No point in worrying about gear as I'm guessing a large wack on the snare will do it practically every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='420831' date='Feb 27 2009, 12:56 PM']Generally good advice... BUT In my experience, most of the time, no amount of explanation will make up for them being unhappy at what you give them, (usually as they don't understand) and if they want it rowdy you're going to lose..[/quote] I've found that B&G&MiL's understand sound limiters when you show them the traffic lights in action and what will happen if you play loud. They usually are hugely apologetic for not knowing it was important and grateful that you will play the gig at all. Incidentalluy I'd say it's the band's responsibility for making sure the person booking you knows you can't play with a sound limiter. You can't expect them to know technical stuff like that so it's up to you to get that requirement in at the start of the negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='bumfrog' post='420838' date='Feb 27 2009, 01:06 PM']I'm guessing a large wack on the snare will do it practically every time.[/quote] Or singing, clapping, whispering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyl Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Actually I would still use your biggest rig, because you will have more flexibility. Set up with it pointing directly at your head - then you can get an onstage volume and sound that you are happy with, without getting too loud all over tha stage. Roll lots of bass out of your onstage mix - let the sound guy put the bass back into the FOH as the limiter will allow. Most importantly, I would stress that if you spend the entire gig worrying about sound and the limiter, you will end up being rubbish. Of course the sound will be a compromise, but you can't play the gig and do sound. Give the sound guy a fighting chance with a low onstage volume and let him sort it! Next week people will discuss that your band was tight and played well. They will remember your rock and roll bass solo when you danced on top table, set fire to your bass and gyrated with the brides old mother. They might remember that the sound was difficult because of the room, but that you did a good, entertaining job. ...... or they might remember that the band spent the whole night twiddling knobs, shaking/sctraching their heads, playing bum notes and generally looking unhappy .... and sounded rubbish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Take the rig which will get the sound you want at low to medium volume. A wooden barn might soak up the sound even if there aren't many bodies. Sorry but limiters can be fitted for "no reason" these days. A council can add a requirement for a limiter to the licence. Run a cable to another plug and keep the volume under control, so you don't give the game away! I've never seen bass set off a limiter! Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='420835' date='Feb 27 2009, 01:01 PM']-1 Last time we did that (not a wedding) the hall manager and tech came up to us after and said "do that again an we'll never have you back here". It's a very nice venue and we didn't trip the sensor anyway as it was set sensibly for our moderate volume levels. The venue people have much too much at stake to risk it and it's not really for a band to say "Bugg3r your legal problems, we want to sound nice" even if it means the gig is slightly less nice sounding. And you just can't risk a big row between the band and the the venue people upsetting someone's wedding event. Molan can't get out of the gig now so he'll just have to prove how professional he and the band are and deal with it.[/quote] You're absolutely right and sensible OG, these things are a raw nerve for me so I'm going all unreasonable on them. I find them ridiculous as I have encountered hundreds of them and the vast majority of them go off as a result of high frequency sounds. We all know that the waves that pass through walls are low ones (bass from a passing boom box car or the bass rumble of a distant party) I've found that no amount of hammering away by me sets them off so they don't serve the purpose for which they were (badly) designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 put a cushion over the sensor(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Thanks for all this guys! We do get an official ban from the venue if we are caught trying to tamper with the limiter power feed or place anything over the sensor. To be honest we are unlikely to get invited back as we're playing as personal guests of the groom who's a singer in a band we've worked with in the past. However we really don't want to be worried about management having a fit on the night and/or spend all evening fiddling with stuff. I'm currently thinking of travelling very light & trying to go for a really pure stage monitor only approach. Of course - one of the reasons for initially thinking about taking my best rig was because I know there's a bass player in the audience from the singer's band & I wanted to show off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Whatever you do, don't let anyone in your band make a big issue about it - the day belongs to the happy couple, explain about the limiter and do your best to keep them happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='Hamster' post='421295' date='Feb 27 2009, 08:04 PM']Whatever you do, don't let anyone in your band make a big issue about it - the day belongs to the happy couple, explain about the limiter and do your best to keep them happy.[/quote] Totally agree - We've got a female lead singer who's gone down with Scarlet Fever so we have a dep singer. Singer #1 wanted to call the groom & let him know she wouldn't be there and he'd have to be happy with singer #2 or we'd pull out of the gig! We politely pointed out that the groom probably didn't give a toss about a change of singer & that the last thing he needed in the week of his wedding was to hear the band might not be 100% and/or could pull out!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombboy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 [i]There are no industry standard settings for these noise limiters. Limiters are a known way of limiting the level of reproduced sound in entertainment venues, etc. and as such they appear in the 'good practice' guidance. But as, in the context of the Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005, it is for the employer in any particular venue to decide on appropriate means to reduce the noise exposure of employees to as low as reasonably practicable, so it is for the employer to decide whether to use such devices, and how to set them up in practice. In the draft 'good practice' it is noted that limiters which cut the power abruptly are not recommended. I would hope that any venue operators would be happy to discuss the use of limiters with you, and take up your offer of helping to set them up. I will let you in on a little secret which will let you "over ride" any such sound limiter device, for a cost of about £60.00. If you google "APC BE-550 UPS" you will find a small UPS (uninterrupted power supply) which is basically a battery back up for all your equipment. Once fully charged, you plug all your gear into one of its 6x 13a sockets, then plug the UPS into the mains at the gig where the limiter is. The result? You play too loud (or hit the random frequency that knocks the power out), and the UPS takes over for up to about fifteen minutes - plenty of time for the limiter to reset itself and give you the chance to knacker your equipment all over again. Try the following link for a distributor: [url="http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-035-AP&...(BE550-UK)"]http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct....p;...(BE550-UK)[/url][/i] All cut & pasted from [url="http://www.pubgigs.com/forum/topics/sound-limiters-who-knows-the"]here[/url]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Now that looks like a really clever option Not enough time to try one for tomorrow but I didn't even think about a separate battery powered UPS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombboy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='molan' post='421331' date='Feb 27 2009, 09:08 PM']Now that looks like a really clever option Not enough time to try one for tomorrow but I didn't even think about a separate battery powered UPS![/quote] How about a separate 'petrol' one? IE, a generator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='tombboy' post='421334' date='Feb 27 2009, 09:13 PM']How about a separate 'petrol' one? IE, a generator?[/quote] I think they might spot it if we ran a generator somewhere - apparently we get inspected before the gig. I've had a quick hunt & loads of places sell the battery backup option so may go hunting for one in the morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFW Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) [quote name='tombboy' post='421304' date='Feb 27 2009, 08:17 PM'][i]There are no industry standard settings for these noise limiters. Limiters are a known way of limiting the level of reproduced sound in entertainment venues, etc. and as such they appear in the 'good practice' guidance. But as, in the context of the Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005, it is for the employer in any particular venue to decide on appropriate means to reduce the noise exposure of employees to as low as reasonably practicable, so it is for the employer to decide whether to use such devices, and how to set them up in practice. In the draft 'good practice' it is noted that limiters which cut the power abruptly are not recommended. I would hope that any venue operators would be happy to discuss the use of limiters with you, and take up your offer of helping to set them up. I will let you in on a little secret which will let you "over ride" any such sound limiter device, for a cost of about £60.00. If you google "APC BE-550 UPS" you will find a small UPS (uninterrupted power supply) which is basically a battery back up for all your equipment. Once fully charged, you plug all your gear into one of its 6x 13a sockets, then plug the UPS into the mains at the gig where the limiter is. The result? You play too loud (or hit the random frequency that knocks the power out), and the UPS takes over for up to about fifteen minutes - plenty of time for the limiter to reset itself and give you the chance to knacker your equipment all over again. Try the following link for a distributor: [url="http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-035-AP&...(BE550-UK)"]http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct....p;...(BE550-UK)[/url][/i] All cut & pasted from [url="http://www.pubgigs.com/forum/topics/sound-limiters-who-knows-the"]here[/url].[/quote] Good idea except the one in the link can only supply 550W Total. Not much use for anything but the smallest of bands. I suspect the person who posted the link on the pubgigs forum has never actually used one. EDIT: According to APC, their small UPS's can only supply around 60% of their VA rating. So in this case around 330W. Edited February 27, 2009 by RayFW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 [quote name='RayFW' post='421341' date='Feb 27 2009, 09:20 PM']Good idea except the one in the link can only supply 550W Total. Not much use for anything but the smallest of bands. I suspect the person who posted the link on the pubgigs forum has never actually used one.[/quote] That's funny - I'm in the process of registering on that forum right now to ask that very question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFW Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 APC have a PDF re VA and Watts here: [url="http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQYF_R0_EN.pdf"]http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQYF_R0_EN.pdf[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Last one we fell foul of (about 4 years ago) was a bass activated one so they have been around for while, Jake. I tripped it 4 time in the evening and I was being really careful. I'd say your key problem will be yoru drummer, assuming he or she is playing an acoustic kit. If they have an electric one you may have more of a chance. Anyway as has been said minimum sound on stage, let the FoH handle the problem. Those UPS's are for computer servers to enable them to be shut down gently in the case of a powercut, not to run bands through multiple powercuts cause by a tripswitch Singers eh? the whole world really does revolve around them The groom should have been on the case if he's in a band .... oh, sorry he's a singer too .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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