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Al Krow

Helix Stomp - Pedal Board Wars!

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@Osiris

Yup indeedy! That's exactly why I've sold my FI and this will be arriving shortly to take its place (starting to land in the UK)

I'm afraid that as @HazBeen confirmed, the Stomp isn't much cop a synth machine. You won't get anything close to even the SY-1, let alone the C4 or FI with the Stomp.

The Stomp's filter sims are pretty decent though and its drive effects seem to me to be very good indeed.

Looking forward to you posting your recommended settings for multi-band compression, which I am sure a lot of your fellow BC'ers will be interested in.

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26 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I'm afraid that as @HazBeen confirmed, the Stomp isn't much cop a synth machine. You won't get anything close to even the SY-1, let alone the C4 or FI with the Stomp.

So you keep saying. And while that may very well be true I'm yet to see or hear anything that supports that claim, so until then I'll remain firmly on the fence. So I'll repeat my request for some audio or video samples to help me make my own opinions as I much prefer my own to those of others :P I'm kinda selfish like that. 

32 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Looking forward to you posting your recommended settings for multi-band compression, which I am sure a lot of your fellow BC'ers will be interested in.

As I have said to you (several) times before, I use different compression settings for different basses and what works for me is unlikely to work for you, so this is a pretty pointless request. You're currently playing active 5's and I'm currently playing short scale passive 4's. Your basses almost certainly have a greater dynamic range than mine and will require different settings to accommodate that. Each compression patch I have set up has different parameters to help flatter the sound of that particular bass, for example the settings for my Mustang are not so flattering for my Corvette and vice versa.  But generally speaking I find a fast attack and slower release times with a modest ratio works, then adjust each of the threshold to suit the bass.  

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Posted (edited)
On 07/08/2019 at 12:48, Osiris said:

So you keep saying. And while that may very well be true I'm yet to see or hear anything that supports that claim, so until then I'll remain firmly on the fence. So I'll repeat my request for some audio or video samples to help me make my own opinions as I much prefer my own to those of others :P I'm kinda selfish like that. 

As I have said to you (several) times before, I use different compression settings for different basses and what works for me is unlikely to work for you, so this is a pretty pointless request. You're currently playing active 5's and I'm currently playing short scale passive 4's. Your basses almost certainly have a greater dynamic range than mine and will require different settings to accommodate that. Each compression patch I have set up has different parameters to help flatter the sound of that particular bass, for example the settings for my Mustang are not so flattering for my Corvette and vice versa.  But generally speaking I find a fast attack and slower release times with a modest ratio works, then adjust each of the threshold to suit the bass.  

Shameless plug, but also in answer to your call. Here are a bunch clips of patches I’ve written for the Future Impact (I’ve never used the Stomp so can’t compare):

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u2-dJaWdaAbPDnDdWkipu-P7IH_GHLQ2

 

Edited by Quatschmacher
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Posted (edited)

Thanks @Quatschmacher - I suspect none of us will get anywhere close to the quality of synth patches you've done on the FI, on the Stomp (as I'm sure @Osiris will find if / when he loads a synth effect patch on his).

My Stomp synth patches have been abysmally poor in comparison (and certainly not worth sharing on here!)

Edited by Al Krow
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1 hour ago, Quatschmacher said:

Shameless plug, but also in answer to your call. Here are a bunch clips of patches I’ve written for the Future Impact (I’ve never used the Stomp so can’t compare):

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u2-dJaWdaAbPDnDdWkipu-P7IH_GHLQ2

 

Thanks, @Quatschmacher for stepping up when others couldn't or wouldn't! 

COUGH* @Al Krow *COUGH. xD

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Osiris said:

Thanks, @Quatschmacher for stepping up when others couldn't or wouldn't! 

COUGH* @Al Krow *COUGH. xD

Haha - bit tricky to meet your every whim Mr Sidilicious, when I'm currently between synths!

Btw why the sudden interest in this particular comparison, when you posted earlier on this thread that synths are not something you're fussed about? 

Sorry you seem to have picked up a cough. Benylin?

So how about posting some of your multiband comp settings and letting the rest of us take a view on how useful (or not) they are for our set ups? At a minimum, it will certainly be a useful jumping-off point... 

Edited by Al Krow

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My interest was based more on your ad nauseam repetition that the synths on the Stomp are noticeably inferior to those of dedicated synth pedals such as the Future Impact, without actually offering anything in support of that claim, rather than any serious interest in bass synths themselves. I thought I'd been fairly unambiguous on that point in my previous posts? Or was I being too subtle?? Didn't the link to the The best (insert whatever here) thread give you a hint???

My background is in science which is an area where anyone making a claim needs to provide evidence to back it up, otherwise they are ignored. Unsubstantiated claims do not last long in scientific circles. And quite rightly so. Unfortunately this is a trait that I carry into my everyday life too, if you can't support the claim you're making don't expect me to take any notice of it. It's also a handy way to filter out some of the copious amounts of bovine excrement that life throws my way. Not that I'm implying anything personal here 🐄 💩

But as I'd (also) said in an earlier post, just playing with the synth models in the Stomp and mindlessly tweaking parameters, the functions of which I don't understand, was yielding results that to my untrained ear were comparable to some of the synth clips that I've heard online - though these are not exclusively Future Impact clips. The clips posted by Quatshisname do indeed sound great, and may well be "better" (presumably measured by whatever metrics you are use to determine betterness?) than the various models currently in the Stomp, but until I see of hear a direct head to head comparison between the two any claims of superiority shall remain, in my eyes, an untested hypothesis. Conjecture. Speculation. 

As for my compression settings... 

On 07/08/2019 at 12:48, Osiris said:

As I have said to you (several) times before, I use different compression settings for different basses and what works for me is unlikely to work for you, so this is a pretty pointless request. You're currently playing active 5's and I'm currently playing short scale passive 4's. Your basses almost certainly have a greater dynamic range than mine and will require different settings to accommodate that. Each compression patch I have set up has different parameters to help flatter the sound of that particular bass, for example the settings for my Mustang are not so flattering for my Corvette and vice versa.  But generally speaking I find a fast attack and slower release times with a modest ratio works, then adjust each of the threshold to suit the bass.  

 

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Posted (edited)

Well ok - I think Peter and Harry have kindly confirmed my view that the Stomp synths don't come close to the FI. Not sure why that caused you so much angst? Anyway I hope their corroboration has dealt with your query / interest and provided adequate support for my 'outrageous' claim on this! I do appreciate you're not a fan of 'best of' threads; that's cool - simply avoid them, there are plenty of alternatives.

Glad you have a background in science and are keen to establish evidence to support claims made. That is the way of progress. 

My turn if I may : you have ad nauseam claimed that compression makes a difference to your sound. Adopting a scientific methodology, if you are able to provide clips (e.g. with your bass for which you have set up your Stomp patches and both with and without multi-band Stomp compression, so we can easily A/B?) to provide some evidence to support that claim, that would be very welcome. I am sure you are right but, as you say, evidence to back it up would be great, otherwise it's just hot air and should be ignored. Sauce for the goose and all that, eh? 😉

Edited by Al Krow

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Someone agreed with your unsubstantiated claim (only one of them by the way) therefore your statement has indeed been validated. My defense withers in the face of such empirical evidence 🤣🤣🤣

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16 minutes ago, Osiris said:

Someone agreed with your unsubstantiated claim (only one of them by the way) therefore your statement has indeed been validated. My defensce withers in the face of such empirical evidence 🤣🤣🤣

That one person btw is @HazBeen and he's an excellent chap and knows a thing or two about pedals, bass and engineering! I'd take his word (over mine) every day of the week!

Bass world should absolutely be about fun, so I'm glad that laughter has been restored to the world of El Cid.

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1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

compression makes a difference to your sound

You can do this with your stomp... play something with no compressor on. Then turn on that block and see if it makes a difference.... 

then setting compression to best effect is as much of a skill as creating killer bass synth tones but this might be a good starting point http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/setup.shtml 

the downside of a stomp or most other multi effects as far as I can tell is they don’t have much in the way of metering in terms of visually seeing what the gain levels are and what the compression levels are- Which is one of the reason compression patches aren’t going to be super useful to share as we all hit the strings differently on different basses with different sonic signatures. 

 

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Posted (edited)

@LukeFRCI completely agree, and your point about a lack of visual metering on multifx comps, which you have rightly touched on before, is a very good one.

My earlier post was aimed more, clearly unsuccessfully(!), at getting young master Osiris who is insisting on others applying scientific methodology to back up their statements, to be prepared to do so himself! :)

Personally, I'm very happy to take on board the wisdom and expertise of others on this forum and which I value greatly. 

Edited by Al Krow
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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@LukeFRCI completely agree, and your point about a lack of visual metering on multifx comps, which you have rightly touched on before, is a very good one.

My earlier post was aimed more, clearly unsuccessfully(!), at getting young master Osiris who is insisting on others applying scientific methodology to back up their statements, to be prepared to do so himself! :)

Personally, I'm very happy to take on board the wisdom and expertise of others on this forum and which I value greatly. 

Incorrect - what @Osiris is saying is that before making definitive statements he likes to appropriately critique the value of something against that what it is being compared to with audio samples to make a direct comparison, rather than just say Mr X, Y or Z says this is the case so it is.

It appears he has done this extensively with compression as this is an effect he uses and this applied his theory extensively, and for the decent reasons listed, there is little point sharing settings. He has done this to an extent with envelopes on the stomp to educate himself about his equipment, but as it’s not used by him currently to any great degree.

Edited by Cuzzie
Typo’s
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15 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Incorrect - what @Osiris is saying is that before making definitive statements he likes to appropriately critique the value of something against that what it is being compared to with audio samples to make a direct comparison, rather than just say Mr X, Y or Z says this is the case so it is.

Spot on. ^

Compression metering is definitely of great value when setting up a compressed signal, without it the temptation is to flatten the dynamics to the point that the compression is audible and obvious, which invariably means that you've over done it and that leads to complaints that compression obliterates your dynamics. You can, of course, use it that way if you are looking for a dynamically flat signal as an effect (not that I can think of an example off the top of my bald little head). But when set up correctly it controls your dynamics and doesn't flatten them. However, in the absence of metering you can use your ears if you know what to listen out for, that's what I've done with my Stomp compression patches and they work for me, giving me the control and punch that I like

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So ..........compared the Stomp, Future Impact and Eventide H9 synth sounds.

Yes the FI has a fantastic engine but usability on the fly is pants without Midi, and the box looks cheap for the price you pay.

Yes the Eventide is a beautiful piece of kit, well constructed with great sounds, not quite the tweakability of the FI and it’s parameters, you have an engine and sound, then you deal with it, great tracking.

Stomp - some of the presets are really quite good and perfectly useable for the majority of people that own this box and what they are using it for who want a bit of squelch in a sound, and no doubt it will get better.

 

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10 minutes ago, Earbrass said:

5. Pointless willy-waving vs Useful info on the Helix Stomp: 1-0 to pointless willy-waving

Dunno about you but I always have a very good reason and point when I wave my willy

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2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Dunno about you but I always have a very good reason and point when I wave my willy

The restraining order begs to differ.

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21 minutes ago, Earbrass said:

5. Pointless willy-waving vs Useful info on the Helix Stomp: 1-0 to pointless willy-waving

Allow me to direct your attention to the 'Show us your pedal board thread' if you're after some willy waving :)

 

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1 hour ago, Cuzzie said:

Yes the FI has a fantastic engine but usability on the fly is pants without Midi,

What do you mean by usability in this example? What kind of things are you trying to achieve? What things are you unable to do?

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11 minutes ago, Earbrass said:

The restraining order begs to differ.

Now now, that was a mistake, it wasn’t meant for you, you got in the crossfire, and overreacted, really you should have been chuffed I could have meant it for you

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2 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

What do you mean by usability in this example? What kind of things are you trying to achieve? What things are you unable to do?

It was by no means a deep dive but merely scrolling between and activating presets and sounds was an absolute ballache and put me right off.

That sort of useability

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6 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

What do you mean by usability in this example? What kind of things are you trying to achieve? What things are you unable to do?

It was by no means a deep dive but merely scrolling between and activating presets and sounds was an absolute ballache and put me right off.

That sort of useability is what I am in about

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1 hour ago, Cuzzie said:

It was by no means a deep dive but merely scrolling between and activating presets and sounds was an absolute ballache and put me right off.

That sort of useability

If you set the global mode differently you can have it so that the pedal immediately loads the preset shown. Pressing the encoder jumps in banks of 10. Pressing and holding the encoder then turning it allows you to very quickly scroll to any preset, releasing loads it. 

With any preset-based pedal, a rudimentary midi switching device makes everything much smoother. 

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