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Receipt for second hand buy

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6 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

I need receipts for all of my equipment for my insurance. If anything happened to a bass or amp, etc, they have told me they need to see proof that I owned it. Pictures of me using the gear at various gigs are not sufficient proof for them.

Surely pics of the gear with you in your home is proof. My insurance didn't ask me for receipts altho i have most. Very few people keep receipts for absolutely everything they have ever bought. I'm a little surprised by that.

Problem for me is that my Warwick Thumb i bought in 89 was only £900. A good condition one i would probably pay around £1200 - £1500 2nd hand. In comparison a new one is silly money. Would they base the value on my receipt or against what a new one might cost these days. 

Think this is always a grey area with insurance companies when it comes to older gear or household items.

Are you talking about specific musical instrument insurance for gigging ? I can see how that might be a different ball game.

Dave

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3 minutes ago, Grangur said:

On the other side of this, over the last 8 years, more than 45 basses have passed through my hands. If I had a receipts for each purchase and was burgled, I could claim they were all stolen. Who's going to prove some had been moved on?

The insurance cover has to be down to trust in some respects.

That's true, but I am only stating what my insurer has told me. It did occur to me that it would be easy to claim for stuff that's been moved on, but it might prove a little awkward once the police get the serial numbers! Besides, I am an honest person and simply wouldn't do that, hopefully most people fit into that category.

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1 minute ago, dmccombe7 said:

Surely pics of the gear with you in your home is proof. My insurance didn't ask me for receipts altho i have most. Very few people keep receipts for absolutely everything they have ever bought. I'm a little surprised by that.

Problem for me is that my Warwick Thumb i bought in 89 was only £900. A good condition one i would probably pay around £1200 - £1500 2nd hand. In comparison a new one is silly money. Would they base the value on my receipt or against what a new one might cost these days. 

Think this is always a grey area with insurance companies when it comes to older gear or household items.

Are you talking about specific musical instrument insurance for gigging ? I can see how that might be a different ball game.

Dave

I asked them if pictures of me with each item would be adequate proof, but they said it would not be. I was told I'd need receipts for the original purchase (not easy for things I acquired some years ago second hand!) or service receipts.

This is for musical equipment cover provided by a specialist insurance broker, as my household insurance refused to cover my gear when they discovered I was using it 'professionally' (their term, meaning thing it out and playing for monetary or other reward). It's yet more money that needs to spent on stuff that I can't have fun with!

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You may well find that if your favourite bass/amp gets nicked and you claim on your insurance they may want some proof of its existence. A receipt is always a good idea. As is taking photos and notes of serial numbers. 

Do as I say, not as I do :-)

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I called my insurer to ask this exact question:  "Given that I don't have receipts for my basses and amps, in the event of a claim, what will you accept as proof that the equipment actually existed?"

Direct Line answered they would accept photographs of the equipment. Photos of serial numbers, with ID information in the photo as well is also good.

It's also worth storing these pictures online in a dropbox or something like this, as hard-drives and laptops can also be stolen in the same theft as the basses.

So,  I know what I need to be doing...  :)

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Not sure if we are talking about household insurance or musical instrument specific insurance ?

Musical instruments or equipment stored in the house are no different from any other household item. If the insurance company refuse to accept that an item was stolen they are in effect calling you a liar.

I have photos of all my gear stored on a cloud. I also have a full and complete list of items in my house to the best of my knowledge and broken down to each room in the house with known values or expected 2nd hand value at a known date on the file. That could also be sent to your insurance company however you would need to add to the file that the list is not a full and complete list or they may not pay out on items not on the list.

I might start adding my bass and amps serial numbers to the list somewhere. 

Also people tend to change their household insurance annually or every few years so i don't want all my items listed with several different companies as you never know what they will do with it.

Dave

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Fair point @dmccombe7 mine is on general household contents, as I don't gig. 

In respect of having this info wuth multiple insurance companies, one for their conditions is always that companies can share details. So, for all we know, if you tell 1 you might be informing many at the same time.

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25 minutes ago, Grangur said:

Fair point @dmccombe7 mine is on general household contents, as I don't gig. 

In respect of having this info wuth multiple insurance companies, one for their conditions is always that companies can share details. So, for all we know, if you tell 1 you might be informing many at the same time.

That's kind of why i've kept it on my own cloud rather than pass to Insurance companies. Maybe i'm just suspicious especially after the Facebook fiasco in recent days.

Dave

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Back in the days of buying/selling second hand gear in Loot it was always accompanied by a receipt but I can't remember ever getting or receiving one on eBay or BC sales/purchases/trades.

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55 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

That's kind of why i've kept it on my own cloud rather than pass to Insurance companies. Maybe i'm just suspicious especially after the Facebook fiasco in recent days.

Dave

DirectLine aren't expecting me to pass the information to them unless it actually comes to happen that I want to claim. Also, they might believe me anyway; it's down to the decision of the loss-adjuster on the case at the time. 

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Posted (edited)

If I’m buying on Basschat - I don’t do it. When I buy on gumtree - always. I have a form ready that I can print quickly and the seller gets a copy too. 

Edited by PawelG

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Most insurance companies won't quibble with you unless you're claiming for a high-value item. My insurance provider (More Than) ask me to specify and instruments worth over £1500, and to have all the details saved somewhere (serial numbers, any distinguishing marks and so on). This makes sense because, in the event of theft, we can both attempt to recover the items and the more information we both have, the better. 

If the insurance company pays out, the item then becomes their property, so there's certainly an interest for them in having this information. 

After having been the victim of a mis-sold item, it's just easier to get someone to sign a bit of paper. I'd say that if you have bought and sold through ebay or even Basschat, the messages and agreements will be enough to convince an insurance company who are only out to detect and deter fraud.

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I would advise asking the insurer rather than relying on speculation. My instrument insurer insists on written proof of ownership, preferably  receipts, but will accept service records, or a valuation by a recognised authority. They will not accept photographs as proof of ownership. I know other companies are less severe in their rules, but these are the ones I am obliged to follow if I want my insurance to be of any use in the even of a loss.

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33 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

I would advise asking the insurer rather than relying on speculation. My instrument insurer insists on written proof of ownership, preferably  receipts, but will accept service records, or a valuation by a recognised authority. They will not accept photographs as proof of ownership. I know other companies are less severe in their rules, but these are the ones I am obliged to follow if I want my insurance to be of any use in the even of a loss.

completely second this.  Insurance companies are very well known for pointing at the small print when telling you why they are refusing to pay out, and very much not known for paying out when you did something different because that's what you assumed would be fine.

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3 minutes ago, Monkey Steve said:

completely second this.  Insurance companies are very well known for pointing at the small print when telling you why they are refusing to pay out, and very much not known for paying out when you did something different because that's what you assumed would be fine.

Exactly so, I am very careful to check exactly what the company's rules are and making sure I stick to them. No point in taking out a policy that won't pay out because you didn't read the T&Cs. I must admit that I didn't used to think that way, but my wife has been working for an insurance brokers for the last couple of years and I get to hear so many tales of woe from her about people who didn't take note of the terms of the policy. 

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trouble is T & C can be long and full of legal talk (deliberately? ) that I lose the will to live after a paragraph or so, I don't bother with insurance apart from the really necessary stuff like Buildings and car, figuring that it's cheaper not too, otherwise insurance companies would go bust

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Yeah, I am sure they could let you know what you need to do in much simpler terms. But they are a business like any other, their primary (only?) objective is to make as much money as possible, and paying money out for claims is not going to help them do that!

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1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

trouble is T & C can be long and full of legal talk (deliberately? ) that I lose the will to live after a paragraph or so, I don't bother with insurance apart from the really necessary stuff like Buildings and car, figuring that it's cheaper not too, otherwise insurance companies would go bust

as someone who spends a lot of his life looking at and interpreting contracts, the point about the legal language used for insurance policies is definitely deliberate, but it's not there to try and confuse you (well...possibly it is, if the insurer is taking advantage of the real reason that it needs to be used).  It has to be used to make certain that there is no dispute over what the exact terms are.  If something can be interpreted in more than one way then it will be, and that way madness lies.

If in any doubt, speak to the insurer or your broker and ask them to explain it to you - it's exactly what they are there for

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In my experience and from friends in insurance, another truth is the smaller and possibly, sometimes, cheaper companies are more likely to work harder to wriggle out of paying

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it may also make a difference on how much you insure with them

My experience is more at large group policies taken out by companies, but the same considerations apply at a smaller level - if you place a lot of business with the company and will switch to somebody else if they don't pay a valid claim then they're far less likely to try the "we refuse everything once to see how many people that puts off making a valid claim" strategy.

Funnily enough I was in Dublin for work last week and discussing exactly this issue with Irish Life (again, large company policies, not individual contracts) and they explained that their reputation in Ireland is that they are known for paying out rather than putting policy holders through as many hoops as possible and disputing claims. Possibly it's a bit chicken and egg - are they paying claims because they are a huge insurer, or are they a huge insurer because they are known for paying claims?

It's possibly one area where the internet is actually a good thing, with on line reviews, comparison sites and talking shops like this one, difficult insurers get a bad reputation quite quickly

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