Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='spyder' timestamp='1487758436' post='3242435'] [b]Even with photo evidence of the pickup you are opening yourself up for the scam. [/b] [b]He can still put a claim against you.... Paypal will ask for the tracking and you can't provided it. They will refund the buyer.[/b] [b]Please be aware of this.[/b] [/quote] Well, he can't claim item not received with reference to tracking info when it was marked as "collection only". PayPal can be a pain, but they do have genuine people there with whom you can speak - and when you do they're generally very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) In fact, it's expressly stated in the Paypal User Agreement: [quote] [b]13.4 Conditions for reimbursement[/b] You may be reimbursed under PayPal Buyer Protection for a problem with a purchase only if all of the following requirements are met:[list=1] [*][b]Your purchase is an eligible purchase.[/b] Purchases of most goods and services are eligible (including travel tickets, intangible items such as rights of access to digital content and other licences), [b]except for the following transactions[/b]: [my emphasis [/list] <snip> 15. purchases of items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf (including at a retail point of sale) and which you claim to be Not Received.[/quote] More details here: [url="https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#13"]https://www.paypal.c...reement-full#13[/url] Edited February 22, 2017 by Jakester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1487761121' post='3242477'] That's what I always do. I've been all over the place over the years, but have never had a problem. I've bought and sold basses in no end of railway station car parks, tube stations and coffee shops . You'd be amazed at the savings you can get by booking the train a week or so in advance. I always use national rail enquiries for the tickets. [/quote] +! And it's always good to meet the buyer in person, have a chat, count the cash and shake their hand. I'd add to that list meeting in a handy pub - if one party is running late then the other always has beer for company. The last time I sold a bass I left it up to the buyer to decide whether to pay extra for a courier. Faced with £25+ in costs plus a couple of days wait and the risk of damage (I'd made it clear that it was collection only or courier at buyers risk) he wasted no time in finding a £10 return fare from Chester to London. For a few hours out of his day he saved a chunk of cash and got a trip to town for a wander round the shops before he met me...possibly wasn't entirely a money-saving exercise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487758221' post='3242433'] I've just sold a bass which was collection only. The guy is getting his parents to collect it from me. He paid by PayPal. I'm not letting it go until I've seen and photographed their ID and taken a picture of them with the bass out of its case. Call me paranoid but that seems to me to be the best precautions against a chargeback i can take. [/quote] In hindsight of this post - http://basschat.co.uk/topic/300931-couriers-whos-responsible/page__view__findpost__p__3242368, do you think you'd have felt better if you'd arranged for the parents to pay on collection? Just curious. Edited February 22, 2017 by SpondonBassed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1487772768' post='3242674'] In hindsight of this post, do you think you'd have felt better if you'd arranged for the parents to pay on collection? Just curious. [/quote] Only because I've had to take the hit on PayPal fees! I gave them the option of either. Edited February 22, 2017 by Jakester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487772920' post='3242678'] Only because I've had to take the hit on PayPal fees! I gave them the option of either. [/quote] Fair point. I just wondered if you had the opportunity to insist on cash on collection or whether the arrangement for collection by the parents was made after the purchase went through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) I would only ever accept cash when collection in person is the choice. Not only can you not get scammed, as spyder pointed out, there's also no PP chargeback if they get home and change their minds. You also save PP fees too Edited February 22, 2017 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487774202' post='3242705'] I would only ever accept cash when collection in person is the choice. Not only can you not get scammed, as spyder pointed out, there's also no PP chargeback if they get home and change their minds. You also save PP fees too [/quote] I believe that if you list something on eBay for sale you are obliged to use PayPal as a payment method, even if you've put cash on collection in the listing - so your buyer can still pay by PP even if you don't want them to. Of course, there's nothing to stop you agreeing cash on collection , but you can't insist. Edited February 22, 2017 by Jakester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487774662' post='3242710'] I believe that if you list something on eBay for sale you are obliged to use PayPal as a payment method, even if you've put cash on collection in the listing - so your buyer can still pay by PP even if you don't want them to. Of course, there's nothing to stop you agreeing cash on collection , but you can't insist. [/quote] Not using either service I don't know but I have difficulty believing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Not to be rude, but if you've not used either service why offer an uninformed opinion? It's quite clearly set out here: [url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html"]http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html[/url] "[b]eBay requires all sellers listing on eBay.co.uk to offer payments through PayPal[/b] (with some limited exceptions). In most cases, other payment options may be offered as well." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mentalextra Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) I don't see the problem. If you're not happy to send it, don't. If a buyer doesn't like it tough. Plenty of other guitars for them to buy. On a slight tangent, my daughter has recently started a small online shop selling cosmetics and clothes. Sending about 20/30 parcels a week at the moment, but she's constantly fighting the courier companies with late/lost deliveries. As far as Ebay is concerned its always sellers responsibility for the safe delivery to the buyer. But the courier companies have no comeback. Ebay sellers are responsible for the courier but have no control over them. Perhaps, some time soon, Ebay will allow feedback for the courier seperate to the seller/buyer, so the courier companies can feel the pain of loss/damage too! Edited February 22, 2017 by mentalextra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487771468' post='3242657'] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]15. purchases of items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf (including at a retail point of sale) and which you claim to be Not Received.[/size][/font][/color] [/quote] Therein lies the problem/scam. Buyer pays by paypal, collects in person/gets a courier/friend to collect (buyer books the courier so seller has no proof of courier booking). THEN buyer contacts ebay and says item hasn't been delivered, seller can't provide proof item was posted (part of T&C) and photos of a courier/family member could be for anything (or even staged by unscrupulous seller), so ebay/paypal refund. I speak from sad personal experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487774662' post='3242710'] I believe that if you list something on eBay for sale you are obliged to use PayPal as a payment method, even if you've put cash on collection in the listing - so your buyer can still pay by PP even if you don't want them to. Of course, there's nothing to stop you agreeing cash on collection , but you can't insist. [/quote] You are obliged to offer PayPal, but you aren't obliged to accept it. II rarely offer collection in person as an option on the items I sell, so if someone wants to do that they have to contact me to see if it is OK, at which point I always tell them that it will be cash payment if they want to collect - and I point out that eBay themselves recommend this approach. Anyone who quibbles with this, gets their bids removed and is blocked from the auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487776430' post='3242743'] Not to be rude, but if you've not used either service why offer an uninformed opinion? It's quite clearly set out here: [url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html"]http://pages.ebay.co...nts-policy.html[/url] "[b]eBay requires all sellers listing on eBay.co.uk to offer payments through PayPal[/b] (with some limited exceptions). In most cases, other payment options may be offered as well." [/quote] Yes thats true, but paypal themselves have stated that its fine to also list that if collecting in person, only cash is accepted. That is in direct repsonse to scammers doing exactly what spyder posted. Its a well known scam and even PP recognised it. Your listings will have to include payment by paypal, but on collections only, you simply do not have to accept paypal Thats fact Edited February 22, 2017 by fleabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 Ah BRX beat me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1487777231' post='3242766'] Therein lies the problem/scam. Buyer pays by paypal, collects in person/gets a courier/friend to collect (buyer books the courier so seller has no proof of courier booking). THEN buyer contacts ebay and says item hasn't been delivered, seller can't provide proof item was posted (part of T&C) and photos of a courier/family member could be for anything (or even staged by unscrupulous seller), so ebay/paypal refund. I speak from sad personal experience! [/quote] I don't doubt your experience, but PayPal seller protection specifically excludes items where you have agreed to collect in person. That's what the policy says. To say "it's part of t&cs" is simply incorrect when I've posted the exact wording and the link to the relevant section. Now, whether or not those policies are correctly applied is an entirely different matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1487778229' post='3242795'] Yes thats true, but paypal themselves have stated that its fine to also list that if collecting in person, only cash is accepted. That is in direct repsonse to scammers doing exactly what spyder posted. Its a well known scam and even PP recognised it. Your listings will have to include payment by paypal, but on collections only, you simply do not have to accept paypal Thats fact [/quote] It's not fact. Under the terms of the eBay user agreement you MUST offer to accept PayPal. If you do not then you are in breach of the user agreement. You can also offer alternatives, but you cannot refuse to accept PP. Whether or not you act in breach (I.e. refuse PayPal) and get away with is a different matter. I suppose it is down to the number of transactions - if a buyer complained about people refusing to accept it then I suspect it'd mean you'd be censured by eBay. Edited February 22, 2017 by Jakester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 What i said is fact. How do i know ? Because i phoned paypal and got it from the horses mouth When you start typing out your auction, you'll find that you HAVE to have paypal listed as a payment option. That bit you cannot get away with. But on collection items, you can state in the auction that you will only accept cash. Although you have PP listed in your auction, you simply DO NOT have to accept paypal on collection only items. Again, that is fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487778528' post='3242802'] I don't doubt your experience, but PayPal seller protection specifically excludes items where you have agreed to collect in person. That's what the policy says. [/quote] I posted re. my experience as the OP was contemplating the whole who books courier dilemma. I received a PP payment for an item and next day the buyer politely messaged to say he could book a courier through work a lot cheaper than any other way. All plausible, so I agreed and he had the parcel collected next day; 7-10 days later he asked ebay/PP for a refund as I hadn't delivered... he got a refund, I got stiffed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Fleabag, I am afraid your definition of fact differs considerably from mine, then. You are free to agree an alternative form of payment but under the terms of eBay's user agreement you cannot refuse to accept PayPal if a buyer chooses to use it in a transaction. If a buyer pays by PayPal, you have two options - refund it, or take it. If you refund it and the buyer complains then you may be censured by eBay. I suspect if you repeatedly return the money your account will be blocked. You do not HAVE to use either eBay or PayPal. They are private companies. But if you do, you are bound by their terms and conditions. Edited February 22, 2017 by Jakester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakester Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1487780975' post='3242836'] I posted re. my experience as the OP was contemplating the whole who books courier dilemma. I received a PP payment for an item and next day the buyer politely messaged to say he could book a courier through work a lot cheaper than any other way. All plausible, so I agreed and he had the parcel collected next day; 7-10 days later he asked ebay/PP for a refund as I hadn't delivered... he got a refund, I got stiffed! [/quote] Sorry to hear that, but slightly different from my scenario. I agree not one where you would want to be though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487780992' post='3242837'] Fleabag, I am afraid your definition of fact differs considerably from mine, then. You are free to agree an alternative form of payment but under the terms of eBay's user agreement you cannot refuse to accept PayPal if a buyer chooses to use it in a transaction. If a buyer pays by PayPal, you have two options - refund it, or take it. If you refund it and the buyer complains then you may be censured by eBay. I suspect if you repeatedly return the money your account will be blocked. You do not HAVE to use either eBay or PayPal. They are private companies. But if you do, you are bound by their terms and conditions. [/quote] In an attempt to diffuse this, I think you are talking at cross purposes here. To list anything you have to allow payment by PayPal. However, you can list the item as being for collection only, and for collection only you can insist on cash payments, not PayPal. So if you don't want to accept PayPal then you list the item as collection only and you insist on cash payments only - this does not infringe on any of eBay's Ts & Cs. If, however, you are going to send the item out by any delivery method, you have to accept PayPal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1487776430' post='3242743'] Not to be rude, but if you've not used either service why offer an uninformed opinion? It's quite clearly set out here: [url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html"]http://pages.ebay.co...nts-policy.html[/url] "[b]eBay requires all sellers listing on eBay.co.uk to offer payments through PayPal[/b] (with some limited exceptions). In most cases, other payment options may be offered as well." [/quote] Fair enough, but [b]why not[/b] offer an opinion too? I am learning from this discussion as well you know. I still find it unbelievable that PayPoop would be legally able to monopolise all financial transactions by the way. Rudeness aside, this condition would be another reason for me to never use either service. Thank you for the information. Edited February 22, 2017 by SpondonBassed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 [quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1487782990' post='3242867'] In an attempt to diffuse this, I think you are talking at cross purposes here. To list anything you have to allow payment by PayPal. However, you can list the item as being for collection only, and for collection only you can insist on cash payments, not PayPal. So if you don't want to accept PayPal then you list the item as collection only and you insist on cash payments only - this does not infringe on any of eBay's Ts & Cs. If, however, you are going to send the item out by any delivery method, you have to accept PayPal. [/quote] Exactly what i posted Steve. And PP confirmed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1487780975' post='3242836'] I posted re. my experience as the OP was contemplating the whole who books courier dilemma. I received a PP payment for an item and next day the buyer politely messaged to say he could book a courier through work a lot cheaper than any other way. All plausible, so I agreed and he had the parcel collected next day; 7-10 days later he asked ebay/PP for a refund as I hadn't delivered... he got a refund, I got stiffed! [/quote] Messaged you through Ebay? Surely you could produce that as evidence of what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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