Guitarist's said I should learn scales..

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='266274' date='Aug 20 2008, 01:23 PM']Yea yea I know. I'm feeling pretty thick right now. But then again I've never done any music theory..[/quote]

precisely! so don't fret! it'll form the BASSis of your introduction to music theory (I just really wanted to get those puns in there... )


but you now know a shitload more about music theory than my rhythm guitard... for example, we (the lead guitard, singer and I) usually like to muck him about by asking if he wants this played in Eb or D# etc etc...still gives us a resolute and long considered answer and has yet to cotton on!

The thing I'm still strugglin to get my head round are the modes, but that'll come in time I recon

[Toasted]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='266280' date='Aug 20 2008, 01:36 PM']Bb is first fret of A string, B the second. Look at a piano keyboard. C major and A minor are made up of all the white notes. The black ones are sharps and flats. F major is all white notes except one flat, Bb.

F and C are the only notes that can't be flattened.

E and B are the only notes that can't be sharpened.



Note for all pedants:

I know!!![/quote]

Amazing

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='266262' date='Aug 20 2008, 01:13 PM']I would say start with C major (no sharps or flats):

CDEFGABC

A minor (no sharps or flats)

ABCDEFGA

Then F Major

FGABbCDEF

Then D Minor

DEFGABbCD

Can you see a pattern developing yet?[/quote]

ok my turn to be thick here, but apart from using the first 7 letters of the alphabet, er no i can't

and i really dont get the use of the keyboard thing, i dont play keyboard, theres no black and white keys on my bass. just makes it more confusing

[Merton]

A minor and D minor are the same as C major and F major respectively, starting on different notes...

After F major, let's look at Bb major:

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

and then G minor:

G A Bb C D Eb F G

So keep going up in fourths (er, one string up from previous note, same fret) in the major key to get to the next major key. Same for the minor keys.

EDIT - dlloyd got there first!
EDIT 2: and explained it better

Edited August 20, 2008 by Merton

[joe_bass]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='266266' date='Aug 20 2008, 01:14 PM']Those are good to start with, once you learn the pattern for one then it's a simple matter of changing the root note.[/quote]

Yep & an excellent fingering practice & ear training tool from there, provided you're in tune!

[simwells]

Haven't seen it mentioned but I'd learn all the modal patterns too.

[alexclaber]

I don't believe scales are the right place to start on bass. Instead, learn the basic arpeggios - major, minor, dominant 7th, minor 7th, major 7th, half diminished, diminished. If you're outlining a chord sequence that will help you far more than learning whole scales in each key. It's all about the root, third, fifth and seventh. You can do so much with those four basic notes.

Alex

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='266328' date='Aug 20 2008, 02:46 PM']I don't believe scales are the right place to start on bass. Instead, learn the basic arpeggios - major, minor, dominant 7th, minor 7th, major 7th, half diminished, diminished. If you're outlining a chord sequence that will help you far more than learning whole scales in each key. It's all about the root, third, fifth and seventh. You can do so much with those four basic notes.[/quote]

But then you're half-way to learning the scales anyway - might as well just learn them and then those numeric intervals will make more sense. It's not any harder to just learn the scales IMO.

[Count Bassy]

My teacher has has got me doing the major scale, but doing all the modes which you run up and down in sequence. Ie you start with the normal C major scale (ionian mode) going up, then move up to C major dorian mode (ie starting on D) -coming down, then up on the phrygian (E start), and so on all the way up to the Ionian mode an octave higher.etc then down all the way doing each scale in the different direction. When I started this it looks pretty daunting, but its actually a lot easier than it looks, certainly teaches you the patterns for each mode, and gets the left hand fingers moving. Mind you, I find that knowing it as an exercise is not the same as being able to use it in a tune!

And as others have said the beauty is that on a bass you can start at any fret and it gives you a different key. Also, for one octave scale, you can start on the E, A, (or string to give you different scales.

Edit: I tried to say, or B, but it put a smiley in

Edited August 20, 2008 by Clive Thorne

[Bilbo]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='266328' date='Aug 20 2008, 02:46 PM']I don't believe scales are the right place to start on bass. Instead, learn the basic arpeggios - major, minor, dominant 7th, minor 7th, major 7th, half diminished, diminished. If you're outlining a chord sequence that will help you far more than learning whole scales in each key. It's all about the root, third, fifth and seventh. You can do so much with those four basic notes.

Alex[/quote]

Root, third, fifth and seventh of what?

Sorry, mate. I'd recommend going the other way and learning scales before chords

[alexclaber]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='266336' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:01 PM']But then you're half-way to learning the scales anyway - might as well just learn them and then those numeric intervals will make more sense. It's not any harder to just learn the scales IMO.[/quote]

The argeggios focus on what is central to the bassline, without the fripperies of the non-chordal notes. Rather than mindlessly go up and down the scales, find the chord sequence to a song you like and then work on applying the relevant argeggios to each chord to create a bassline. Also look at the original bass line and relate that back to building it from the arpeggio.

Focusing on scales as a bass player is as useful as a beginning drummer focusing on fills - start with the essentials!

Alex

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Merton' post='266319' date='Aug 20 2008, 02:37 PM']A minor and D minor are the same as C major and F major respectively, starting on different notes...

After F major, let's look at Bb major:

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

and then G minor:

G A Bb C D Eb F G

So keep going up in fourths (er, one string up from previous note, same fret) in the major key to get to the next major key. Same for the minor keys.

EDIT - dlloyd got there first!
EDIT 2: and explained it better [/quote]


nah you lost me again (been playing for about 15 years, never done a days theory in that time)

[quote name='dlloyd' post='266327' date='Aug 20 2008, 02:44 PM']If you go from the C on the third fret of the A string, then go up the fret board playing every note at every fret all the way up to the 15th fret, you're playing the same notes as you would if you went from C on a keyboard and played every note including the black keys all the way to the next C...



See there's no black key between E and F and between B and C?[/quote]

yeah i get that but going backwards and forwards between keyboard and bass just get confusing, and seems pretty pointless to me. i',m learing the bass not piano.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='266348' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:13 PM']The argeggios focus on what is central to the bassline, without the fripperies of the non-chordal notes. Rather than mindlessly go up and down the scales, find the chord sequence to a song you like and then work on applying the relevant argeggios to each chord to create a bassline. Also look at the original bass line and relate that back to building it from the arpeggio.

Focusing on scales as a bass player is as useful as a beginning drummer focusing on fills - start with the essentials!

Alex[/quote]

whats an arpeggio?

[Bilbo]

An arpeggio is a chord played as a series of notes not as three or more notes played at the same time.



Don't let ANYONE tell you it is better not to bother with theory. They are fools and will lead you nowhere.

I have a saying: Ignorance is Ignorance.

Theory is your friend - love it and it will give and give and give.

Edited August 20, 2008 by bilbo230763

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='266348' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:13 PM']The argeggios focus on what is central to the bassline, without the fripperies of the non-chordal notes. Rather than mindlessly go up and down the scales, find the chord sequence to a song you like and then work on applying the relevant argeggios to each chord to create a bassline. Also look at the original bass line and relate that back to building it from the arpeggio.

Focusing on scales as a bass player is as useful as a beginning drummer focusing on fills - start with the essentials!

Alex[/quote]

That's cool if the bass line is only built on the R, 3, 5 or 7.

What about 2 (9), 4 (11) and 6 (13).

If the original bass line has notes outside of that then learning the scale will tell you that, you'll reach a point when you know what scale tone is used.

Why only learn half of it ?, if you're going to bother learning something you may as well go that little bit further and do it properly.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='266365' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:33 PM']That's fair enough. If you have no interest in theory, then there's little point in using keyboards to understand it.

Relating theoretical concepts to keyboards really is the easiest way to visualise and understand them.[/quote]

never said i had no interest in theory, just i have never done any, well i've tried a few times and just lost what was being talked about, i know the major scale as alot of the songs we cover are made up from that, or at least seems to be.

if you were learning to drive a car you wouldn't talk about riding motorbikes.

[parker_muse]

Bass is the best (and guitar) for scales as they are the same on the fretboard wherever you play them (as long as you stay in standard tuning, naturally).

I use;

Blues
Major
Minor
Diminished
Sus

[leonshelley01]

I mostly stick to major and minor pentatonics, but understanding scales even if you don't play/practice them is imprtant in order to understand chords and more importantly for bassists, the triads under those chords.

To make life easier however, most guitarists only ever write songs in E or A min!

[The Funk]

I kind of agree with Alex on this one, even though I get what the other guys are saying and agree with that too.

I'd go a different way and take each of the songs in your set and work out each chord/scale one by one. It's the best way to learn which scales/chords are used the most on the type of music you play.

Most funk tunes have a major 6th, minor 7th, root/octave thing happening, which usually translates to the Dorian and Mixolydian modes, depending on whether the chords are minor or major.

That major 6th, minor 7th, root/octave thing sounds a bit too chirpy for most metal but that funky sound has filtered through into a lot of hard rock through some of the funkier classic rock bands like Aerosmith and AC/DC. That's how you can find that Dorian thing happening in [i]Mr. Brownstone[/i] - one of the songs in your set.

Another staple sound of hard rock/metal going back to [i]Smoke On The Water[/i] and a lot of things by Black Sabbath is the diminished 5th. As dlloyd pointed out above, it's a note in the blues scale and there it's usually used as a passing tone between the 4th and the 5th, as it can sound quite unresolved if you dwell on it. Well, in a lot of metal, the sound you're going for is one that's slightly unnerving and so that diminished 5th is quite popular.

I haven't explained what Dorian, Mixolydian, major 6ths, diminished 5ths and all the rest mean 'cos I think dlloyd's theory primer in the theory section covers all of that really well.

But I would suggest that Alex is right that you should learn how chords are formed and then which scales can fit them. But definitely put it all to a practical purpose right from the beginning. Try to figure out how the songs you already know and play are constructed harmonically.

[Wooks]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='266344' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:08 PM']My teacher has has got me doing the major scale, but doing all the modes which you run up and down in sequence. Ie you start with the normal C major scale (ionian mode) going up, then move up to C major dorian mode (ie starting on D) -coming down, then up on the phrygian (E start), and so on all the way up to the Ionian mode an octave higher.etc then down all the way doing each scale in the different direction. When I started this it looks pretty daunting, but its actually a lot easier than it looks, certainly teaches you the patterns for each mode, and gets the left hand fingers moving. Mind you, I find that knowing it as an exercise is not the same as being able to use it in a tune!

And as others have said the beauty is that on a bass you can start at any fret and it gives you a different key. Also, for one octave scale, you can start on the E, A, (or string to give you different scales.

Edit: I tried to say, or B, but it put a smiley in[/quote]
Your's and my teacher must be talking to each other cos mine has me doing the same!! But mine's a sadistic tw*t ( ), he has me playing say C major in the normal way ie c,d,e, etc then when I get to the octave C, he wants me to play D Dorian backward then E phryg. normal F lydain backward and so on and on
I would learn all the 7 modes of the major scale too. I bet you hadn't started this one eh Sarah?? Scales are a right minefield!!

[The Funk]

Something I thought I should add: one reason the major and minor pentatonic scales are useful is that they contain the same notes as a lot of other commonly used scales - and leave out the ones which differ between them.

For example, the minor pentatonic covers the same notes as the Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian modes, and all of the chord tones of a minor 7th chord.

[parker_muse]

Mixolydian scales are genius for funk! I find, when not slapping, using this scale just works amazingly. The notes are in places that you can do good fast runs and mix it up nicely. Don't you like pretty heavy music sarah? Try diminished scales. I think these are the ones with the flat 5ths? Am i right?

Just think of the opening riff to black sabbath by black sabbath. Thats the root, octave, then the flat 5th. It sound bloody terrifying.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='266346' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:10 PM']Root, third, fifth and seventh of what?[/quote]

Whichever chord you're playing.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='266346' date='Aug 20 2008, 03:10 PM']Sorry, mate. I'd recommend going the other way and learning scales before chords [/quote]

Well you would say that, you play jazz.

Alex

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='parker_muse' post='266432' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:44 PM']Mixolydian scales are genius for funk! I find, when not slapping, using this scale just works amazingly. The notes are in places that you can do good fast runs and mix it up nicely. Don't you like pretty heavy music sarah? Try diminished scales. I think these are the ones with the flat 5ths? Am i right?

Just think of the opening riff to black sabbath by black sabbath. Thats the root, octave, then the flat 5th. It sound bloody terrifying.[/quote]
Yea. Hard rock/metal mainly

[parker_muse]

Okay, try that then!