ianrendall Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Is this good for metal? Also, will it play Doom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1425898828' post='2711869'] Essentially it's just the logical progression from the Synthaxe, Yamaha EZ-EG, Starr Labs controllers and the YouRock Guitar. [/quote] Some of that certainly, although most of that is guitar based, where this is specifically not guitar based, which makes it more interesting (and why I have just handed over my card for one). As soon as you base your idea off a guitar you have just added a load of restrictions to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 [quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1425904031' post='2711949'] Some of that certainly, although most of that is guitar based, where this is specifically not guitar based, which makes it more interesting (and why I have just handed over my card for one). As soon as you base your idea off a guitar you have just added a load of restrictions to it. [/quote] But looking at the promo video the people getting the most expressiveness out of it are the ones who treat it like a guitar with some extras. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it's quite as radical as its inventors would like us to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1425905261' post='2711970'] But looking at the promo video the people getting the most expressiveness out of it are the ones who treat it like a guitar with some extras. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it's quite as radical as its inventors would like us to believe. [/quote] I would say that it is the people treating it more like a violin. But no, it isn't hugely radical in a construction sense, but it is different and very versatile, and you do have a point with the price, and that price does make the options for being radical much higher. There is nothing else out there that I could afford that comes close to it to what I could do with that, and as a result of that I believe it will make a big impact. All the things that came before could only be used by people who were already pretty successful musicians, or had a lot of disposable money and therefore some way fixed in their ideas about instruments. This can be used by people who have different ideas (or better, no ideas). I don't think this is the end point for that instrument, just a start, and I suspect that is why it is called instrument 1, but I can see people sitting round playing these in groups and with other people in a way I can't really see anyone using the other things mentioned, other than in the occasional prog / jazz event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Mariner Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I wonder if you can use any external synth or if it's restricted to just what's on board? Some of the clean sounds seemed OK, but the electronic sounds were a bit nasty on the vid. It still smacks of EZ-EG and the earlier Casio version, though hopefully done better than either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 [quote name='Ancient Mariner' timestamp='1425930365' post='2712461'] I wonder if you can use any external synth or if it's restricted to just what's on board? Some of the clean sounds seemed OK, but the electronic sounds were a bit nasty on the vid. It still smacks of EZ-EG and the earlier Casio version, though hopefully done better than either. [/quote] AFAICS it's simply a controller with no sounds of it's own. You need an iPad or a computer to change how it responds to your input and to get any sounds out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Yep, that's right it's just a controller. If you look on the web, their original prototype was a large wooden one with a phone built in. I think it was a good idea they changed that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1425844245' post='2711412'] The hardware is a little like a slimmed down Synthaxe, though I guess most of the clever stuff happens in the software (I haven't watched the video yet). I'm surprised they didn't include a 5-pin Midi socket though - that would make it seem more like a useful gigging tool. [/quote] MIDI over USB, so it should be easy enough to interface it to 5-pin MIDI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1425944651' post='2712726'] MIDI over USB, so it should be easy enough to interface it to 5-pin MIDI. [/quote] Is MIDI over USB simply a question of making up a suitable lead, or does it require an interface to get actual MIDI protocol data? Every time you have to convert data you introduce latency which is the last thing you want in a performance instrument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1425946021' post='2712734'] Is MIDI over USB simply a question of making up a suitable lead, or does it require an interface to get actual MIDI protocol data? Every time you have to convert data you introduce latency which is the last thing you want in a performance instrument. [/quote] AFAIK it requires some sort of host device, usually a PC or Mac, though some people have setup things like the Raspberry Pi to do this job. I'm still a little wary of anything which would require me to run a computer as part of a live setup, as every time I've had bandmates using laptops with MIDI devices there are the occasional glitches or even two-minute silences when it crashes and has to be restarted. Perhaps this is me being a little behind the times though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1425946622' post='2712737'] AFAIK it requires some sort of host device, usually a PC or Mac, though some people have setup things like the Raspberry Pi to do this job. I'm still a little wary of anything which would require me to run a computer as part of a live setup, as every time I've had bandmates using laptops with MIDI devices there are the occasional glitches or even two-minute silences when it crashes and has to be restarted. Perhaps this is me being a little behind the times though. [/quote] IMO any device that takes longer than 15 seconds to go from completely off to fully functional is unsuitable for use in a gigging situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Midi over USB to midi interface doesn't introduce the sort of latency you could spot, and it would also be hard to measure, as a full 3 byte midi packet over USB is faster than one bit of the midi signal over the standard serial. If you can avoid using midi sockets (so device to usb midi module) you reduce your latency massively. I do have a midi usb to midi socket, its the Keith McMillen 12 step one, although generally I wouldn't have (and have) a problem using a mac on stage. If it is good enough for NiN it is ok for me. I would never use a windows machine though. Edit - My macbook does only take 12 seconds to boot though, so that is pretty good (and I have never had a music app crash). I would also add that I don't find USB a good interface for midi, as it has a host / controller thing (firewire would have been better, or any shared bus), but this is nothing to do with latency. Edited March 10, 2015 by Woodinblack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 It's not the latency of any individual unit that's the problem, it's when you have 2 or 3 units each adding their own very slight latency that all of a sudden they add up to something that is noticeable. I'm sure that if you have have the resources of NIN then using a Mac on stage isn't a problem; and they probably have at least 2 running in parallel with redundancy on all the connected devices, so if one fails you would hardly notice. However IME most bands using this technology live can barely afford one instance of all the gear they need let alone 2 or more... USB is a terrible idea for performance instruments not just because of the host/controller issues but mostly because the cables and connectors IME as simply not up to the rigours of gigging. There computer leads (and I include FireWire and Ethernet in this) are fine for home or office use. You can just about get away with using them in the studio, provided that you don't unplug them too many times. But for live where the gear has to be set up and broken down every night, they are completely unsuitable. It's all very well the manufacturers saying that the leads are inexpensive to buy and universally available, but when you are replacing the cheap ones every other month until you bite the bullet and go some special "road worthy" quality leads at roughly 10 times the price, you start to wish that they had spent another £10 or so to fit proper robust locking connectors on their equipment in the first place. Even the DIN connector used for MIDI is not immune. When the MIDI spec was originally released, the connections were supposed to be made using XLR connectors and DIN was only there as a low cost alternative for non-professional equipment. However AFAIK Voyetra were the only company that actually used XLRs and as a result had to supply convertor leads with all their synths. In the days when I used to use a lot of MIDI gear live it was very quickly apparent that the DIN plugs and sockets were not up the job of providing reliable connections for the MIDI data and therefore where ever possible we replaced them with XLR sockets which not only proved far more robust but meant that we could use standard balanced mic leads for all our interconnects. Where it wasn't possible to replace the sockets we used heavy weight metal bodied DIN plugs. If there was ever a problem with the gear it could nearly always be traced back to a DIN connector becoming loose. The only way I could contemplate using USB or FireWire connectors in a live rig would be if they were part of a permanently assembled unit and neither the leads or the equipment they plugged into was cab able of any kind of movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1425946021' post='2712734'] Is MIDI over USB simply a question of making up a suitable lead, or does it require an interface to get actual MIDI protocol data? Every time you have to convert data you introduce latency which is the last thing you want in a performance instrument. [/quote] An Arduino would do the job. Switch on is a couple of seconds, latency would be negligible. If you want to avoid having flying USB leads (I agree they're a bad idea), power with a 9V battery, and attach whatever box you're using to the Instrument 1 with a short USB lead to the socket. Or maybe modify the Instrument 1 to use a Neutrik mini-XLR 4-pole socket and plug to replace the standard USB socket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I've got one of these from when I was massively into playing rockband... wonder if I could get it to do the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1425998470' post='2713231'] I've got one of these from when I was massively into playing rockband... wonder if I could get it to do the same [/quote] Does it produce MIDI data? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 It would appear so, through a real MIDI port: [url="http://createdigitalmusic.com/2010/10/rock-band-3-fender-mustang-pro-midi/"]http://createdigitalmusic.com/2010/10/rock-band-3-fender-mustang-pro-midi/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Might try hooking it up to my keyboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Looking at the spec, it's a lot like the Yamaha EZ-EG, although that has a "hammer-on" setting. However as detailed in a previous post and based on my personal experience with both the KX5 keytar and the EZ-EG, I don't think the standard 5-pin DIN MIDI socket is robust enough for live use on and instrument that is worn rather than just sitting on a stand. I discovered that I would have to do something about the DIN socket about 15 minutes into my first rehearsal with the KX5 after a succession of stuck MIDI notes, and by the next time it sported an XLR connector for the MIDI which proved to be far more suitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1426007485' post='2713365'] Might try hooking it up to my keyboard [/quote] You'll need a device that is at least 6-part multi-timberal and allows each part to be put into Mono Mode in order to get anything useful out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Looks like a Fisher Price Chapman stick. I could never play a stick in a million years but this thing looks tempting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1426008150' post='2713374'] You'll need a device that is at least 6-part multi-timberal and allows each part to be put into Mono Mode in order to get anything useful out of it. [/quote] Should be manageable and if not there's protools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 [quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1426008445' post='2713378'] Looks like a Fisher Price Chapman stick. I could never play a stick in a million years but this thing looks tempting. [/quote] Not as many strings as a Chapman Stick. You need this: [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161630963957"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161630963957[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 I am not, by nature, very techy although I am also not imtimidated by technology but I see a real flaw in this 'tool' in terms of application. From what I can see, if you cannot play, say, a harp, this thing lets you play the sounds of a harp and so on through all sorts of intruments. Fine, I get that. It may be a midi usb interface thingy, i don't really care. What interests me is HOW DO YOU LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT?!! A couple of the players in the video were obvioulsy used to playing guitars ane had formed guitar chords with their left hands and were arpeggiating with their right. So, if I am interpreting that correctly, if you can play guitar, you can play guitar on it. Is there any point to that? If you want to learn how to play a convincing violin, vibrato soaked part on it using an iphone, I would respectfully suggest that this would take weeks, months and years to perfect, just as it would a real violin. If you patch it into a PC and want to play The Flight Of The Bumble Bee or Giant Steps or Comfortably Numb etc etc, you ain't going to get there any quicker than you would on a 'real' instrument. In addition to all of the above, it still sounds like a synth which, with all its wonders, cannot seriously replicate an acoustic instrument. OK if synthy things are your bag but, if not, they will more likely irritate than inspire. It's probably more than a 'toy' but I guarantee that most musicians who buy one will play with it for a couple of hours and then lean it up in the corner of the room where it will remain for years as they take out their real instrument of choice. A comparison, for me, would be the Roland HPD15 handsonic percussion pad. Thousands of sounds, touch sensitivity, lots of techy potential but you almost NEVER see one being used by any percussionist. They are fun, they are useful tools for sketching the studio but, in real life, their uses are limited. As or fun; more likely time thief. I will not be buying one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1426067098' post='2713892'] Not as many strings as a Chapman Stick. You need this: [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161630963957"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161630963957[/url] [/quote] Nice budget instrument! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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