John_P Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Apologies if that has been discussed, the search wasn't bringing up any threads... While I'm looking for an amp, I had the idea of getting a preamp pedal and running into an active cab. I've got four db opera 415 cabs that I aren't using at the moment so I was thinking about either the tech21 bass di pedal or an ebs valvedrive to run into one (or two). Has anyone tried something similar and had successful results or should I just hold out for the right amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 I asked a similar thing about using powered cabs, a lot of the problem is that the Bass guitar range goes into territory that you would normally cross over into subs - and that the speakers aren't designed to reproduce the transients of bass guitar like a bass rig would. So a lot of the time I've been advised not to pursue... If you go elsewhere in dark corners of this and other forums you will find other people who use PA gear with no problem.... what is the "right amp" anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_P Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 Thanks - interesting thinking about transients and freq range - I can see that they don't go super deep without subs but using them as the FoH PA, would often have some bass guitar going through them - I figure they should sound ok and just need to be powerful enough and with the right preamp they might sound ok. I guess I'm curious if anyone has used a tech21 di or a valvedrive into the PA and how it sounded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 I played through a Wharfdale active PA cab for a while. It sounded fantastic. The only thing we had to be careful of was overheating. The amps work harder to push low frequencies out and if the cooling system isn't up to the job then things can get toasty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_P Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1411937695' post='2564171'] I played through a Wharfdale active PA cab for a while. It sounded fantastic. The only thing we had to be careful of was overheating. The amps work harder to push low frequencies out and if the cooling system isn't up to the job then things can get toasty. [/quote] Thanks - mind if I ask what preamp you were using? I've just added the aguilar tone hammer pedal to the list of options - I like the look of the amp head and the di pedal might be an option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 I can't remember - it might have been an EBS Microbass pre. But most active PA cabs are designed to take line level inputs so have their own preamp stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Another possible problem is that PA cabs are generally made of moulded ABS or some other form of plastic... I'm not sure if it's the best material for an electric bass cab regarding resonance, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1411939296' post='2564205'] Another possible problem is that PA cabs are generally made of moulded ABS or some other form of plastic... I'm not sure if it's the best material for an electric bass cab regarding resonance, etc. [/quote] Rather an advantage though, I'd have thought..? [attachment=172739:No_Stin.jpg] We don't need no stinkin' resonance..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1411939296' post='2564205'] Another possible problem is that PA cabs are generally made of moulded ABS or some other form of plastic... I'm not sure if it's the best material for an electric bass cab regarding resonance, etc. [/quote] I'm willing to bet that the average ABS PA cab will be better engineered than the average Bass cab (note the second average there ) properly done I don't see how it would be worse. if you look at this they take a RCF HD12a apart.... not that ABS stuff has a fair bit of bracing there.... also a cab I would love to try sticking electric bass through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9AJrnGKnMY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1411939880' post='2564215'] I'm willing to bet that the average ABS PA cab will be better engineered than the average Bass cab... [/quote] Holy crap! Then why aren't we all using PA cabs?? Actually there is a very good reason which was set out in a previous thread about using bass with a PA cab started by me a while back, but I can't bloody find it now and I can't remember why. Anyone? Edited September 28, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1411939960' post='2564219'] Holy crap! Then why aren't we all using PA cabs?? [/quote] It's not always a question of 'engineering', I'd say. I like the 'old school' rectangular boxes; they sound as I want them to sound. Is it technically optimal..? No, but it was 'cheap an' cheerful' back then, and I've poor taste and little cash. [sharedmedia=core:attachments:172739] We don't need no stinkin' engineering..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1411939960' post='2564219'] Holy crap! Then why aren't we all using PA cabs?? [/quote] I seem to remember one of the reasons was to do with cost... a PA cab suitable for electric bass (that is not used with a sub) needs to be well-designed and well-built and obviously this tends to make them very expensive... Also, I like the sound that my bass cab makes. Obviously it's somewhat coloured compared to the transparency of a decent PA cab, through which you could have whatever pre-ampery and FX you desired I suppose, but horses for courses and all that. But then wouldn't you need to mount the PA cab on a pole? And wouldn't it fire way out into the room, leaving you a bit under-represented on the monitoring front? Would you not then need a wedge or small cab or IEMs to hear yourself? Edited September 28, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1411940491' post='2564229'] I seem to remember one of the reasons was to do with cost... a PA cab suitable for electric bass (that is not used with a sub) needs to have a high xmax and not be rolled-off at around 60Hz like some mid-priced PA cabs are, and this tends to make them very expensive. Where's Bill Fitzmaurice? He'll know. [/quote] so that RCF model in the video has DSP protecting it against over excursion and is -3dB at 45Hz.... now doing my best to read Bill's charts for his Simplexx line (picked 'cos it's a bass reflex too) the 12 bass cab with a 2512 in it has a similar -3dB point. Most bass cabs don't publish the frequency range with any kind of reference points and it wouldn't surprise me if a fair few of them roll off WAY higher than that. What I was thinking was that the PA cab might not be expecting such an uncompressed transients - like I doubt the drivers have the high Xmas driverswe see in a lot of higher end modern bass cabs..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1411941199' post='2564242'] ...I doubt the drivers have the high Xmas drivers we see in a lot of higher end modern bass cabs... [/quote] Well that alone would make them unsuitable, would it not? And don't start talking about Xmas, for God's sake. It's only the end of September... Edited September 28, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1411942283' post='2564248'] Well that alone would make them unsuitable, would it not? And don't start talking about Xmas, for God's sake. It's only the end of September... [/quote] maybe, I was kinda hoping one of the resident experts would chime in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_P Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share Posted September 28, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1411940491' post='2564229'] I seem to remember one of the reasons was to do with cost... a PA cab suitable for electric bass (that is not used with a sub) needs to be well-designed and well-built and obviously this tends to make them very expensive... Also, I like the sound that my bass cab makes. Obviously it's somewhat coloured compared to the transparency of a decent PA cab, through which you could have whatever pre-ampery and FX you desired I suppose, but horses for courses and all that. But then wouldn't you need to mount the PA cab on a pole? And wouldn't it fire way out into the room, leaving you a bit under-represented on the monitoring front? Would you not then need a wedge or small cab or IEMs to hear yourself? [/quote] Well the cost isn't an issue - I have several pa cabs vs buying a bass amp so it's a cheaper temp solution - tone hammer pedal for around 150 into the cab vs 400 for the amp and still need some cabs. My cabs can be used as stage monitors so they would sit near me and I'll di into the main pa just like I would from any amp I buy. What I want to avoid is buying a pedal only to find it all sounds wrong on stage and I should have just bought an amp. I guess the low cost expt is the behringer bdi pedal ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) [quote name='John_P' timestamp='1411942668' post='2564252'] What I want to avoid is buying a pedal only to find it all sounds wrong on stage and I should have just bought an amp. I guess the low cost expt is the behringer bdi pedal ;-) [/quote] Ah yes, back to your original question... I've had good results using both the BDI and the VT Bass as preamps into a power amp and cab, so I don't see any reason why you shouldn't get the sound you want - notwithstanding my misgivings about using PA cabs (which are probably unfounded anyway). I also had great results with a Zoom B3 - there's a whole thread on TB about using a B3 as a preamp. Or a cheaper option is to buy a Zoom B1Xon... there just happens to be one for sale on here at the moment*... *Now sold - you snooze, you lose!! Edited September 29, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grissle Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) It's essentially the same thing as running DI to the PA. But maybe better since your running through a bass specific pre. Edited September 29, 2014 by Grissle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 There are two technical issues with using PA cabs, actually the same issues are shared with all bass cabs. Neither of them should be an issue with a properly designed PA cab. Bass needs lots of air to be shifted if it is to be loud, this means lots of cone area and/or the cone(s) need to move a long way. Cheap speakers with cheap magnets can't do this generally. PA cabs should be able to put out exactly the right amount of bass to match the output of the rest of the band so should be able to cope with bass at that sound level with no problems, otherwise what's the point? However cheap PA's compromise this and are often only used as vocal PA avoiding this issue. The other technical is distortion, if you play with lots of distortion/overdrive then it generates lots of extra high frequency energy and you will burn out the horn drivers. Not a problem if you play clean. If you bought a new PA speaker and it had DSP built in then none of this is a worry the DSP makes your speaker idiot proof and turns it down if you do something stupid. The other non- technical issue is that of taste, bass cabs are rarely uncoloured because the colour is the 'sound' of the cab. PA cans should be uncoloured so will sound different. If you like DI'd sound then you'll like using PA cabs. Another issue is cab resonance, bass cabs generally are fairly massively built to resist low frequency resonances. PA cabs are generally made to be light enough to be thrown on top of poles and are engineered to suppress resonances across the frequency spectrum. I'd avoid one of the polypropylene PA cabs as a bass monitor but most reasonable quality PA cabs will handle bass as well as most bass cabs. In some ways the bass unit in a PA cab can be more specialised for bass than a bass speaker, as the horn does all the top end. Try your cabs at home, turn the power up gradually to slightly louder than you would normally play and run up and down the lowest octave on your bass listening for any strange noises from your cabs, stop if it happens. If it doesn't you are good to go. Don't do this at a gig because the signs your speakers are being damaged will be masked by the rest of the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Depends if you like to hear your bass back in headphones which is going to be a clean reproduction. If your playing technique is compatible..and clean enough.... you might be on the same page but I'd suggest the cross over for vocals isn't going to be right...and you probably can't attentuate that off the cab. So...putting a pretty basic EQ stage in front probably doesn't give you control. You'd have to hear it and decide for yourself but I think the real reason is because this is the stuff you have lying around rather than a pursuit of a certain sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r16ktx Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Just one thing, I'm not sure that DIing to an active cab is going to have the correct output to input levels. I mention this as I'm currently using an active near field monitor as an experiment and DIed a rh750 and got very low volume so I've run the di into a mixer and then onto the monitor and everything is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fourstrings Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 It can be done. Phil Lesh's Meyer Sound rig. Eden Nav preamp and active Meyer cabs. [attachment=172811:Bass-Rig-Macro.jpg] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Alan Fourstrings' timestamp='1412025306' post='2565069'] It can be done. Phil Lesh's Meyer Sound rig. Eden Nav preamp and active Meyer cabs. [attachment=172811:Bass-Rig-Macro.jpg] [/quote] One of his previous rigs... [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/iqC90Qi.jpg[/IMG] [quote][size=4]The Wall of Sound actually was eleven separate systems. Vocals, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, and piano each had their own channel and set of speakers. Phil Lesh's bass sent signals from each of the four strings to a separate channel and set of speakers for each string. Another channel amplified the bass drum, and two more channels carried the snares, tom-toms and cymbals. Because each speaker carried just one instrument or vocalist, the sound was exceptionally clear and free of distortion.[/size] The Wall of Sound consisted of 89 300-watt solid-state and three 350-watt vacuum McIntosh tube amplifiers generating a total of 26,400 watts of audio power through 586 JBL loudspeakers. The system projected high quality playback at 600 feet with an acceptable sound projected for a quarter mile, at which point wind interference degraded it. Four semi-trailers and 21 crew members were required to haul and set up the two 75-ton systems, one of which would go ahead to the next city on a tour while the other one was being used. The other would then "leapfrog" to the next show. The first Wall of Sound shows were in February 1973 and the last in October 1974 during the legendary closing week at Winterland memorialized in The Grateful Dead Movie.[/quote] How times change. Edited September 29, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fourstrings Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Well, OK, I prefer the Meyer rig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 so did I... bit out of my price range though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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