Playing thoughts?

[BassMunkee]

Quality.

[Merton]

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='246847' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:40 PM']You could consider he was playing the tri-tone of the relative minor.[/quote]
But it still sounded crap Like I said, both the major and minor thirds sounded crap at that point so ultimately his lack of knowledge vs that of the rest of the band both would have come up with solutions which sounded crap. My solution would've been to avoid the 3rd of any colour/description/type all together. And it may still have sounded crap!

[BassMunkee]

[quote]But it still sounded crap Like I said, both the major and minor thirds sounded crap at that point so ultimately his lack of knowledge vs that of the rest of the band both would have come up with solutions which sounded crap. My solution would've been to avoid the 3rd of any colour/description/type all together. And it may still have sounded crap![/quote]
The 3rd what?

[The Funk]

Sheesh. Why do these discussions always turn into a "you have no soul" v. "you have no brain" clash of un-civilizations?

I think most people here are of the opinion that whatever works for you [i]is[/i] the right way.

In my band, we have two self-taught guys (me and the guitarist) and two schooled-from-a-young-age classically-and-jazz-trained guys (keyboard player and drummer). Being in this band has challenged a lot of our preconceptions: schooled guys [i]can[/i] have the best feel and groove and most soulful playing in town, and self-taught guys [i]can[/i] know what they're talking about when it comes to harmony and rhythm.

The guitarist and I both taught ourselves bits of theory along the way and are still absorbing new bits every day. The difference between us and the other two is that they learnt it from a teacher whereas we had to go find it from other musicians/books/articles/websites.

[The Funk]

[quote name='Merton' post='246863' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:55 PM']But it still sounded crap Like I said, both the major and minor thirds sounded crap at that point so ultimately his lack of knowledge vs that of the rest of the band both would have come up with solutions which sounded crap. My solution would've been to avoid the 3rd of any colour/description/type all together.[/quote]

A suspended chord?

[6stringbassist]

I love learning theory, I have dozens of books, and try and play constantly with people to put it into practise.

I admit though, that it all depends on what music you play, and if you are happy with where you are then that's cool.

[Merton]

[quote name='BassMunkee' post='246866' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:00 PM']The 3rd what?[/quote]

The third coming of Godzilla

[quote name='The Funk' post='246867' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:01 PM']Sheesh. Why do these discussions always turn into a "you have no soul" v. "you have no brain" clash of un-civilizations?

I think most people here are of the opinion that whatever works for you [i]is[/i] the right way.

In my band, we have two self-taught guys (me and the guitarist) and two schooled-from-a-young-age classically-and-jazz-trained guys (keyboard player and drummer). Being in this band has challenged a lot of our preconceptions: schooled guys [i]can[/i] have the best feel and groove and most soulful playing in town, and self-taught guys [i]can[/i] know what they're talking about when it comes to harmony and rhythm.

The guitarist and I both taught ourselves bits of theory along the way and are still absorbing new bits every day. The difference between us and the other two is that they learnt it from a teacher whereas we had to go find it from other musicians/books/articles/websites.[/quote]

I think that's the point a few of us are trying to get across, some more eloquently (you) than others (me) and some are perhaps misunderstanding each other!

[6stringbassist]

[quote name='BassMunkee' post='246866' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:00 PM']The 3rd what?[/quote]

The 3rd degree of the scale, the major 3rd of G is B natural, the minor 3rd is Bb.

They're only a semitone, or one fret apart, and sound dissonant when played together.

[Merton]

[quote name='The Funk' post='246871' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:02 PM']A suspended chord?[/quote]
To be honest the example I gave was 3 years ago and I'm buggered if I can remember the ins and outs of the rest of the harmony in the song. This particular riff occurred in the outro where (IMHO) a more simple root note pattern would've driven the song forward a lot better without any harmonic mess incurred by maj/min 3rds, suspensions or anything else.

[The Funk]

[quote name='Merton' post='246874' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:02 PM']I think that's the point a few of us are trying to get across, some more eloquently (you) than others (me) and some are perhaps misunderstanding each other![/quote]

I think that's what Alex was saying as well. I know he has a certain way of expressing himself once you rub him up the wrong way (as do I), but he's generally a live and let live type of guy.

[Merton]

[quote name='The Funk' post='246879' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:07 PM']I think that's what Alex was saying as well. I know he has a certain way of expressing himself once you rub him up the wrong way (as do I), but he's generally a live and let live type of guy.[/quote]
Yip

[The Funk]

[quote name='Merton' post='246877' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:05 PM']To be honest the example I gave was 3 years ago and I'm buggered if I can remember the ins and outs of the rest of the harmony in the song. This particular riff occurred in the outro where (IMHO) a more simple root note pattern would've driven the song forward a lot better without any harmonic mess incurred by maj/min 3rds, suspensions or anything else. [/quote]

I was trying to be a smart arse. My limited understanding of suspended chords is that they're chords over which you shouldn't play the 3rd. If you think (from memory) that both the minor and major 3rds sounded crap, then it sounds like you were right and maybe theory would have some kind of explanation to back you up.

[Merton]

[quote name='The Funk' post='246885' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:10 PM']I was trying to be a smart arse. My limited understanding of suspended chords is that they're chords over which you shouldn't play the 3rd. If you think (from memory) that both the minor and major 3rds sounded crap, then it sounds like you were right and maybe theory would have some kind of explanation to back you up.[/quote]
Furry muff I see where you're coming from, just didn't spot it before!!

[xilddx]

[quote name='The Funk' post='246885' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:10 PM']I was trying to be a smart arse. My limited understanding of suspended chords is that they're chords over which you shouldn't play the 3rd. If you think (from memory) that both the minor and major 3rds sounded crap, then it sounds like you were right and maybe theory would have some kind of explanation to back you up.[/quote]

I thought suspended chords were neither major nor minor.

[BassMunkee]

[quote]QUOTE (BassMunkee @ Jul 24 2008, 02:00 PM)
The 3rd what?


The 3rd degree of the scale, the major 3rd of G is B natural, the minor 3rd is Bb.

They're only a semitone, or one fret apart, and sound dissonant when played together.[/quote]
Ah see, I know what you mean when you say that, it sounds wrong - I didn't what it was called I just knew it sounded gash.
So in fact I have learnt something.
Thanks.

[Doddy]

Isn't it funny,that you never hear a player who has studied theory say that it has hindered them in anyway? If you can groove,knowing what you are doing can only help. The people who dismiss the technicalities are the same people(generally)are the same ones who slap root-minor 7-octave patterns over a major 7 chord-they learn the pattern and don't know how to alter it for the relative chord.

I have never heard anyone complain that they know how to do something!

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' post='246895' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:27 PM']Isn't it funny,that you never hear a player who has studied theory say that it has hindered them in anyway? If you can groove,knowing what you are doing can only help. The people who dismiss the technicalities are the same people(generally)are the same ones who slap root-minor 7-octave patterns over a major 7 chord-they learn the pattern and don't know how to alter it for the relative chord.

I have never heard anyone complain that they know how to do something![/quote]

I don't know the theory of walking but I can still walk. There are all sorts of things I do every day I don't know the theory of. I don't have time to learn the theory of everything I do. I can speak, write, spell, proof read and edit to a fairly high degree of complexity that is grammatically correct and expresses what I want it to, but don't ask me to explain what a split infinitive is.

Next time you make a cup of tea, think about how much theory you are applying to it. If you were cognisant of that theory, would you be able to make tea that tastes better to you?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='246844' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:35 PM']I am interested to know how your knowing theory helps you reduce the amount of trial and error in the songwriting process, compared to say a guitarist who has never learned a scale, but knows his way around the fretboard by ear.[/quote]

If your ear is perfect and you can always immediately identify what chord is required, complete with all the extensions, then you don't need theory. But then again, if you don't know theory how are you going to label all those chords?

I am imperfect and therefore the theory helps - though that doesn't mean I don't write plenty of things without using any theory and sometimes still have absolutely no idea what is going on with the harmonic structure of some songs.

Regarding my earlier outburst, as I informed one of our esteemed moderators, I believe that if you wouldn't say it in a face to face discussion then why would you say it on a forum? Maybe it's the lack of risk of a black eye? Sweeping all-encompassing statements are usually full of holes and oversimplified at best, if not plain wrong. Those of us with more knowledge, wisdom, experience, brain, whatever, can see through the bs but there are plenty that can't and thus I will continue to pull people up when they post with their foot in their mouth, blinkers on, or talking out of their...

Alex

[xilddx]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246920' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:51 PM']Regarding my earlier outburst, as I informed one of our esteemed moderators, I believe that if you wouldn't say it in a face to face discussion then why would you say it on a forum? Maybe it's the lack of risk of a black eye?
Alex[/quote]

There are a lot of theories about this ..

[cheddatom]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246920' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:51 PM']If your ear is perfect and you can always immediately identify what chord is required, complete with all the extensions, then you don't need theory. But then again, if you don't know theory how are you going to label all those chords?

I am imperfect and therefore the theory helps - though that doesn't mean I don't write plenty of things without using any theory and sometimes still have absolutely no idea what is going on with the harmonic structure of some songs.

Regarding my earlier outburst, as I informed one of our esteemed moderators, I believe that if you wouldn't say it in a face to face discussion then why would you say it on a forum? Maybe it's the lack of risk of a black eye? Sweeping all-encompassing statements are usually full of holes and oversimplified at best, if not plain wrong. Those of us with more knowledge, wisdom, experience, brain, whatever, can see through the bs but there are plenty that can't and thus I will continue to pull people up when they post with their foot in their mouth, blinkers on, or talking out of their...

Alex[/quote]

I don't see how you could immediately identify what chord is required if you DID know theory. Are you saying it just speeds things up? In what way?

I accept your point about labelling, but I don't think this is necessary for everyone. Especially in rock bands where the bassist can look at the guitarist's fretboard and have a good idea of what is going on, and vice versa.

I'm not quite sure what your last point is about. It sounds like you might be making violent threats.

I know you're probably not talking about me, but for instance, if I HAD insulted you in some way or another, be it in real life or on a forum, I would like to think that I wasn't risking a black eye.

[Machines]

Alexclaber, if you had reacted that way in real life you likely would have received the aforementioned 'black-eye' from someone yourself (not me though, i'm a nice guy !).

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' post='246918' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:50 PM']I can speak, write, spell, proof read and edit to a fairly high degree of complexity that is grammatically correct and expresses what I want it to, but don't ask me to explain what a split infinitive is.[/quote]

Being as though you can write,spell,and proof read,means you have a degree of knowledge as regards to the language that you are using. But how many musicians cannot 'spell' the notes in a chord,or 'proof read' a chart? Being able to 'speak' alone is not always enough.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Machines' post='246930' date='Jul 24 2008, 03:01 PM']Alexclaber, if you had reacted that way in real life you likely would have received the aforementioned 'black-eye' from someone yourself (not me though, i'm a nice guy !).[/quote]

Trust me, I do it all the time and no-one's hit me yet.

Alex

[xilddx]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246920' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:51 PM']Sweeping all-encompassing statements are usually full of holes and oversimplified at best, if not plain wrong. Those of us with more knowledge, wisdom, experience, brain, whatever, can see through the bs but there are plenty that can't and thus I will continue to pull people up when they post with their foot in their mouth, blinkers on, or talking out of their...

Alex[/quote]

And thus you are not open to others' ideas or to a debate and become frustrated because you believe you are correct in your thinking. There is no right or wrong in this thread, only opinon, and the product of influence and experience. It's all useful. Don't knock it.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='246929' date='Jul 24 2008, 03:00 PM']I don't see how you could immediately identify what chord is required if you DID know theory. Are you saying it just speeds things up? In what way?

I accept your point about labelling, but I don't think this is necessary for everyone. Especially in rock bands where the bassist can look at the guitarist's fretboard and have a good idea of what is going on, and vice versa.

I'm not quite sure what your last point is about. It sounds like you might be making violent threats.

I know you're probably not talking about me, but for instance, if I HAD insulted you in some way or another, be it in real life or on a forum, I would like to think that I wasn't risking a black eye.[/quote]

Read what I write, don't read between the lines. I never said that theory would mean you could immediately identify what chord was required, I said that if you could do that then you wouldn't need theory!

The labelling I referred to was so that you yourself would have a vocabulary to describe different sounds to yourself, not for communicating with other musicans.

Again, don't read between the lines, read the content, don't make up your own inferences. I am not making any threats, I'm commenting on the bizarre lack of interpersonal skills that are demonstrated on forums and if such interpersonal skills are developed to avoid violence.

Alex