neepheid Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396714808' post='2416719'] Perhaps we might erect a sign to this effect over the doors to Off-Topic. [/quote] You might as well fit that sign over the main door to the building Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1396713676' post='2416700'] ...which was somewhat my point; I don't think of it as 'being taken advantage of', and I'm not a jealous guy. If someone else is earning through my efforts, I'd be more pleased than upset. Money is not my driving force. [/quote] Nor mine. 30 years of local gov. service , and the cruelly double edged and painful sword of inheritance have furnished me with all the doh ray me I'll ever want or need. If it was I'd be playing music I don't care for in the Northern clubs for 3 times what pubs pay me.. Money is , however , the driving force behind pubs and small venues employing bands. They want to make money. End of. I consider it right , proper , and fair to take my share as their employee. I don't mind what anyone else does - certainly not what you do - so if you thought my use of the word 'YOU' was directed at you alone , it wasn't. I was addressing everyone as to my opinion. It's the only way to make a businessman - which landlords and promoters are - to see that there's actually some value in what musicians do. If a musician doesn't want money - maybe he or she might consider taking it anyway for all the reasons I've listed and giving it discreetly to a favoured charity , or maybe sponsoring a young player to have lessons or buy decent kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1396771934' post='2417076'] Nor mine. 30 years of local gov. service , and the cruelly double edged and painful sword of inheritance have furnished me with all the doh ray me I'll ever want or need. If it was I'd be playing music I don't care for in the Northern clubs for 3 times what pubs pay me.. Money is , however , the driving force behind pubs and small venues employing bands. They want to make money. End of. I consider it right , proper , and fair to take my share as their employee. I don't mind what anyone else does - certainly not what you do - so if you thought my use of the word 'YOU' was directed at you alone , it wasn't. I was addressing everyone as to my opinion. It's the only way to make a businessman - which landlords and promoters are - to see that there's actually some value in what musicians do. If a musician doesn't want money - maybe he or she might consider taking it anyway for all the reasons I've listed and giving it discreetly to a favoured charity , or maybe sponsoring a young player to have lessons or buy decent kit. [/quote] +1 great post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Next time I help my elderly neighbour by mowing his lawn or fixing his guttering, I'll be sure to charge him the going rate and donate the proceeds to the local care home for retired gardners & builders, who I'm putting out of business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 That is the ticket... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassnut62 Posted April 6, 2014 Author Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396791814' post='2417344'] Next time I help my elderly neighbour by mowing his lawn or fixing his guttering, I'll be sure to charge him the going rate and donate the proceeds to the local care home for retired gardners & builders, who I'm putting out of business. [/quote] The difference here is that your neighbour isn't running a business that requires the services of gardners or builders.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassnut62 Posted April 6, 2014 Author Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1396771934' post='2417076'] .....Money is...the driving force behind pubs and small venues employing bands. They want to make money. End of. I consider it right , proper , and fair to take my share as their employee. I don't mind what anyone else does - certainly not what you do - so if you thought my use of the word 'YOU' was directed at you alone , it wasn't. I was addressing everyone as to my opinion. It's the only way to make a businessman - which landlords and promoters are - to see that there's actually some value in what musicians do. If a musician doesn't want money - maybe he or she might consider taking it anyway for all the reasons I've listed and giving it discreetly to a favoured charity , or maybe sponsoring a young player to have lessons or buy decent kit. [/quote] + another 1 re Dr Dave's point I think it is almost always true, at least with businesses, that people only value what they pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='Bassnut62' timestamp='1396811631' post='2417615'] The difference here is that your neighbour isn't running a business that requires the services of gardners or builders.... [/quote] Running a business is irrelevant - my neighbour would have paid a gardener or builder though if I didn't help him out, so someone lost out financially because of my willingness to do the work for free. Did I do a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396815098' post='2417674'] Running a business is irrelevant - my neighbour would have paid a gardener or builder though if I didn't help him out, so someone lost out financially because of my willingness to do the work for free. Did I do a bad thing? [/quote] If your neighbour could afford to pay someone, then I would say you did do a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 Not in that instance as you are helping out someone less fortunate.... but he isn't making money out of your free endeavours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 (edited) I wonder how long I'd last (i.e. before death threats or violence!) if I took up building or plumbing or another trade as a hobby and just went out and did it all for free. I make my money from music, so why not undercut the professionals in another trade in my local area in my spare time if I enjoy it? Edited April 6, 2014 by skej21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 This is getting really depressing now. So everything is about money now is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396817295' post='2417710'] This is getting really depressing now. So everything is about money now is it? [/quote] not like you to run out of steam.... but yes, gigs are about money as far as I am concerned. I may well far rather a good gig over an average gig but I want it to be paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396817295' post='2417710'] This is getting really depressing now. So everything is about money now is it? [/quote] Not everything. I'd quite like to know how you expect a professional musician to pay the rent and bills? Because from what you've said, essentially everyone should play for free because it's not about the money... Or are you saying that being a musician isn't a career worth paying for and that's why we should all he happy and not bother with playing for money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 We're back to the basics of this 'free market economy' again, aren't we..? If a venue thinks they're getting a better deal from a 'free' band than a paid band, they'd be daft to give a way their profits, surely..? Most professionals would be happy with that, I'd have thought. If, however, the paid band bring enough 'added value' to justify the difference, the venue will surely pay them, no..? What's wrong with that..? ...or is there a flaw in 'free market' economics..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 I personally make my living from Engineering and, not wanting to sound too cocky, am pretty good at it and companies & individuals pay me decent amounts of money for my knowledge and skills. I don't Engineer for free as I know I can earn good money from it. Now lets talk about playing a bass. I am somewhere between average and slightly below average. I do it as a hobby, I learn more every day, and I would guess a min of 50-60% of people reading this play better than me. So when I play live, I generally expect that I can get away without paying to be there. In the last 6 months I've achieved the level of not having to pay to play, ie they let me play for free. I play open mics, rehearsals and deps, and never ask for any money. I am delusional if I think I'm going to earn money playing bass. Now reverse the above scenario where I post about playing bass on an engineering forum. There are guys down the pub on a Wednesday that I often visit who are retired and have a machine shop. They do jobs for people for free as they have nothing better to do all day and enjoy just doing it to keep busy and out in the workshop instead of getting ear-ache from their either half. Sounds familiar...? Do I blast them out for undercutting me...? What I'm saying is this whole play for free vs play for a fee thing is as much about competence as anything else. I play for free, but I'm not a pro. I would not expect a pro to play for free. So how about we all accept that there is no answer, it is based on personal situation, profession, and skill. The highest skilled people get paid handsomely, the hopeful amateurs get nothing nor expect anything. Tomorrow I will be mainly machining pistons so I can pay the band beer and rehearsal fees ready for the next gig! Cheers, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1396817948' post='2417722'] Not everything. I'd quite like to know how you expect a professional musician to pay the rent and bills? Because from what you've said, essentially everyone should play for free because it's not about the money... Or are you saying that being a musician isn't a career worth paying for and that's why we should all he happy and not bother with playing for money? [/quote] Not at all. I'm not, and never have, advocated that everyone should play for free, or indeed anyone if they don't wish to. Why would I, it's none of my business. What I am suggesting is that people shouldn't be castigated if they are happy to play for free or accused of spoiling things for those who feel the need to be paid just to get out of bed in the morning. My comment about how depressing I was finding the way the discussion was going was prompted by skidders reply to my question about whether I did a bad thing by helping out a neighbour . . . . [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1396815657' post='2417681'] If your neighbour could afford to pay someone, then I would say you did do a bad thing. [/quote] If we follow that example, we should be asking anyone in apparent need of some help whether they can afford to pay or not because if they can pay someone else then it's a bad thing to help them out of the goodness of our hearts. Perhaps it's just me, but I find that outlook on things somewhat depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subbeh Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) Thing is not everyone can live on good will, sometimes we need to pay for mortgages, food, petrol and any number of other things. Of course good will and charity have their place but the ad in the OP is clearly relying on someone else's talent given freely in order to make more money for someone who almost certainly isn't in need or passing the goodwill around. I'm sure that everyone of us have given either time, money or both for charity or those genuinely in need, you seem to acting obtusely for the sake of it. Edited April 7, 2014 by Subbeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Why does everyone who can play an instrument think the world owes them a living? The only way you will make money from your music is if someone else can make more money out of it... be that a label or a restaurant looking to bring people in. No matter how good you think you are, unless your doing something everyone else isn't why would anyone pay you for it? I love my music and playing in bands... but I have to work full time on the side to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 [quote name='Subbeh' timestamp='1396835157' post='2417830'] Of course good will and charity have their place but the ad in the OP is clearly[b] relying on someone else's talent given freely[/b] in order to make more money for someone who almost certainly isn't in need or passing the goodwill around. [/quote] Hmm. 'relying' or simply offering an opportunity for promotion? Depends on your perspective I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 When you see one of the chains that owns pubs disguised as "local pubs" filed £116.4 million in profit I have to ask if working a 9-5 job 5 days a week to provide equipment, fuel and time to "help out" your local helped fill the coffers just a bit more. Who knows perhaps as the owners sit on the yatch sipping wine they will think of thoses hours you slogged away for nothing and toast to your health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassnut62 Posted April 7, 2014 Author Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1396821557' post='2417773'] ...or is there a flaw in 'free market' economics..? [/quote] Surely not!!!! [i](said with ironic tone)[/i].................this may be a whole different thread though and one that might get us into even deeper water. Edited April 7, 2014 by Bassnut62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1396821557' post='2417773'] We're back to the basics of this 'free market economy' again, aren't we..? If a venue thinks they're getting a better deal from a 'free' band than a paid band, they'd be daft to give a way their profits, surely..? Most professionals would be happy with that, I'd have thought. If, however, the paid band bring enough 'added value' to justify the difference, the venue will surely pay them, no..? What's wrong with that..? ...or is there a flaw in 'free market' economics..? [/quote] They may only looking at the money side of it...ie, music for free=is better than music than costs, and considering how much even musicians actually know about music, it isn't surprisng a LL or venue manager just looks at figures. But then we can say the same for punters as well. Sufface to say, that most bands that play for free tend to do so as getting money for the gig is harder than not getting it. I see it as a service... and it can be a very enjoyable service, but that doesn't mean that we give it away. As I said, there is a stigma around here about free gigs.. either the venue isn't taken that seriously or the band isn't...and I am quite happy with that. How can I charge a beer festival a function fee figure and then play a free one...?? what sort of message or what sort of taking the pee is that..? And you'll still get the organiser of the Beer fest say I know what you play pubs for so why should I pay you more...??? Set out your stall and stick with it... it will cost you a few cheap gigs but they are the ones you can and want to loose.. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I never saw what the issue is with venues not paying bands, if you aren't getting paid, and want to be paid, don't play the gig, its that simple surely?. it's different If you are a career musician, or make your earnings by playing, in which case you wouldn't play a venue that isn't paying anyway would you?. For a lot of us on here, music is a hobby, and the cost of gear/travel etc is part of that in the same way that any other hobby would be. If I took up archery, I'd have to pay for the bow, the arrows, the transport etc, but wouldn't expect to rock up to an event and be paid for it.. why should music be different? or am I missing something completely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I have a standard 'test' I apply before agreeing to play for nothing. If everyone else involved (i.e. bar staff, PA provider) is getting paid then I expect the same professional courtesy as everyone else involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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