EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1380535586' post='2226596'] Why make excuses for them? I just ask for honesty from the start to finish and I ask for a generous estimate with added time for it to be completed, however this leeway I feel it is treated by builders as time to just stop building altogether, or extra time not to start it for ages in the first place and I have not been given any reason to believe otherwise (Due to lack of communication, honesty or/and explanations). If I was given a valid reason as to why someone elses later order was built ahead of mine then I would be fine with it. The issues I have with these custom builders are not my fault and I should not be held to fault for their mistakes, dishonesty or lack of communication. [/quote] I'm not making excuses for them. Far from it. I'm just saying, it's commonplace, rightly or wrongly. If you buy off the shelf, then you can get it there and then. Anything custom can be hit and miss - and guitar builders (not all I hasten to add) are one of the worst culprits. But it's certainly not limited to the luthiers. Honesty is something I would always look for - and these guys just want to keep the customer happy. If they f**k up, they have a habit of hiding under a rock. (which is probably where you are now) I've been a cutomer of a couple of luthiers - both showed similar traits with regards to timescales... but both have a product that I couldn't get elsewhere. I wanted their product, therefore I had to wait... and ultimately, I was (mostly) thrilled with the end product. One of the luthiers in question above is very highly regarded round this way - but my experience with him with him was awful... and something I never want to deal with again... which is fine because the experience made me fall out of love with his products. Having to wait and then be presented with a POS is the real problem. Problem solved, I won't be knocking on his door again - and I was a problem free customer - contacted him once to order, contacted him after receiving the goods after the inevitable wait. The wait was one thing, the barrel of BS after was a completely different thing. I could have posted on here about the experience... but there are so many fanbois, it would have been futile. So in short, I'm not surprised by what I read here... and I don't condone such behaviour... just saying if you can't cope with it, don't go for custom builds... or put up and shut up cos nothing is changing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380542171' post='2226701'] . just saying if you can't cope with it, don't go for custom builds... or put up and shut up cos nothing is changing! [/quote] We shouldn't have to put up with it though, regardless of whether it's inevitable or not its still not right. Airing grievances about the process on a forum such as this with others who have had similar experiences, seems like a good idea to me. Especially as I would imagine a significant percentage of the bespoke instrument customer bass are members of this forum... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380542171' post='2226701'] just saying if you can't cope with it, don't go for custom builds... or put up and shut up cos nothing is changing! [/quote] And that attitude is the problem. How are current or future luthiers who do do this sort of thing supposed to learn if no one does anything? The fact that there is a lack of genuine two way communication with both builders to me and the fact I don't want to resort to legal action (which is an absolute resort) means that I come here to air my grievances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Sorry to read this bud - but it might be worth the wait. I know my custom instrument was! Maybe worth it in the end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyratm Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Also - if the guys worth his salt, he'll go back and do some work on the instrument if required. Action etc! Hope it all comes right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1380541792' post='2226698'] Just on the flipside of your letter.... Alan at ACG, Chris and the Guys at Overwater, Rob and Dawn at Status Chris at Alpher, Aaron at whatever Aaron armstrong's pickup making business, Alex at barefaced apart from Alpher and ACG I've not bought from them, but in talking to all of them and the way they conducted themselves, I would trust them 100% in their integrity and communications. The good guys should be celebrated I think! [/quote] You could add John East to that, been very helpful whenever asked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1380542998' post='2226719'] And that attitude is the problem. How are current or future luthiers who do do this sort of thing supposed to learn if no one does anything? The fact that there is a lack of genuine two way communication with both builders to me and the fact I don't want to resort to legal action (which is an absolute resort) means that I come here to air my grievances. [/quote] Not an attitude at all. An acceptance of what is the case. Believe me, I wish everything in the world ran like clockwork too. The fact is, you are dealing with people. And people all work in very different ways. I must reinforce the fact, I don't think it's right... it's just that I know how these companies work... and very little is going to change quickly. Looking at the list from LukeFRC, I know people who would share a different view for all but 2 of those companies. I've dealt with enough people to realise that this is the case... and why people like the Chinese are doing so well. They realise the importance of customer service and as a consequence, are the ones that are winning the business. For example, I follow a (very angry) pickup maker on Facebook. I don't even know if his pickups are any good - it just amuses me how he seems to think the customer is always wrong, his stuff is the best in the world, yet he's making no money. He isn't listening to anybody or their opinions (why should he when he believes in his products to the extent that he does)... and will no doubt find out the hard way. Sue him, speak to him, state that he's being unreasonable, slag him off on a forum - I already know his response (and it's hilarious, that's why I follow him). Put this all together... and that's why the only people who are buying from him are the guys that love his products and will put up with the bullshit and time delays involved in buying his pickups. These people don't change. They are artisans who generally (i.e. I'm not talking about every manufacturer here) have no idea about business. Legal action will push them to throw the towel in. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380544818' post='2226762'] These people don't change. They are artisans who generally (i.e. I'm not talking about every manufacturer here) have no idea about business. Legal action will push them to throw the towel in. Just sayin'. [/quote] Fine by me - let the useless lying, cheating f***ers give up pissing people around & ripping them off. Let them go & get a proper job where their bullshit excuses & laziness wouldn't be tolerated. These w***ers must be pissing themselves laughing when they see people like you making excuses for them. I had major problems back in the 80s with the first custom build I ever ordered. The time quoted for delivery came & went & all I got from the arsehole building it was a series of increasingly bizarre lies about why it was not ready. The bass in question had a unique set of inlays designed by me - Imagine my surprise when I saw somebody on Top of the Pops using a custom bass by the same builder with exactly the same woods as mine & with my inlays! To make it worse this was about a week after the builder told me the bass he was building me had been destroyed in a workshop fire! The guy ended up leaving the country with a long line of people he owed work & money to chasing after him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380542171' post='2226701'] just saying if you can't cope with it, don't go for custom builds... or put up and shut up cos nothing is changing! [/quote] I can't believe you can come out with that! How is Shockwave suppose to know that he would have to wait far longer than was quoted, and then have his enquiring emails ignored? And why on earth should we have to put up with such bad service just because some luthiers are like that, how are we to know who are trustworthy, and who are not, until you actually order from them? It's thanks to people such as Shockwave for highlighting the bad service he is experiencing from certain people, because it helps to stop others making the same mistakes. Edited September 30, 2013 by thebrig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriswareham Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Not too convinced by the idea that Chinese manufacturers are doing well because of great customer service. In my experience they are successful thanks to the exchange rates that allow them to sell to countries such as the UK at very attractive prices. The quality is more often than not very, very variable with inconsistencies and high failure rates for items even from the same batch. In my case I'm talking about electronic components and high volume injection moulded parts, where it would have been better in hindsight to deal with the higher prices and slower turnaround of a European manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380545838' post='2226782'] I can't believe you can come out with that! How is Shockwave suppose to know that he would have to wait far longer than was quoted, and then have his enquiring emails ignored? And why on earth should we have to put up with such bad service just because some luthiers are like that, how are we to know who are trustworthy, and who are not, until you actually order from them? It's thanks to people such as Shockwave for highlighting the bad service he is experiencing from certain people, because it helps to stop others making the same mistakes. [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380545838' post='2226782'] I can't believe you can come out with that! [/quote] I know, it's great isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380545736' post='2226778'] These w***ers must be pissing themselves laughing when they see people like you making excuses for them. [/quote] Err... I'm not making excuses. I'm actually agreeing with people... just saying, nothing is going to change. It's been it like the 70s... and it's not changing soon. Those that evolve, survive, those that don't, get eaten. Speak with you wallet. Take your business elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1380545875' post='2226783'] Not too convinced by the idea that Chinese manufacturers are doing well because of great customer service. In my experience they are successful thanks to the exchange rates that allow them to sell to countries such as the UK at very attractive prices. The quality is more often than not very, very variable with inconsistencies and high failure rates for items even from the same batch. In my case I'm talking about electronic components and high volume injection moulded parts, where it would have been better in hindsight to deal with the higher prices and slower turnaround of a European manufacturer. [/quote] If you actually were to deal with the Chinese who are bidding for new business, they are customer service through and through. Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the exploitation that they are doing with regards to labour - but they have to be the best in terms of quality and customer service or otherwise their Chinese neighbour will win the business. Take a look at your phone... I pretty much guarantee that the your Apple, Samsung or whatever, was built by the factory that could not only deliver the goods but bent over backwards to get the business in the first place... ...and here we come back full circle. If you want the goods, you'll wait. You know a BF cab for example, is going to be months... and there are posts on here quite recently about inaccurately quoted delivery times. If you want a BF and nothing else will do, you don't really have a lot of options. You are subject to their way of working... and their timescales. What aren't people getting about my comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Strings Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380545736' post='2226778']The time quoted for delivery came & went & all I got from the arsehole building it was a series of increasingly bizarre lies about why it was not ready. The bass in question had a unique set of inlays designed by me - Imagine my surprise when I saw somebody on Top of the Pops using a custom bass by the same builder with exactly the same woods as mine & with my inlays! To make it worse this was about a week after the builder told me the bass he was building me had been destroyed in a workshop fire! The guy ended up leaving the country with a long line of people he owed work & money to chasing after him. [/quote] Great story! Any pics of the band and your bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1380545875' post='2226783'] The quality is more often than not very, very variable with inconsistencies and high failure rates for items even from the same batch. In my case I'm talking about electronic components and high volume injection moulded parts, where it would have been better in hindsight to deal with the higher prices and slower turnaround of a European manufacturer. [/quote] Welcome to the world of the bean counters. Taking into account the failure rates and the cost to fix those failures, it will still be cheaper to fix on fail then build at a premium. Annoys me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380546143' post='2226790'] Speak with you wallet. Take your business elsewhere. [/quote] That's the point I am trying to make, we [u]will[/u] take our business elsewhere, and that's why we need people telling us about their bad experiences, so we don't make the same mistakes. By saying, "put up and shut up" it seems to imply that we should except it if you get shafted, and then take your business elsewhere, surely it is better to be warned first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I've had a lot of dealings with various custom builders (both instruments and amps). There are definitely some that are completely unable to meet any deadlines and others that get it bang on, shock, horror, even deliver ahead of schedule. The ones I've been most impressed with recently have been Fodera, Ritter and Carvin. All three have very different business models but all of them seem very efficient. Fodera used to have all sorts of problems but they are amazing these days. They give an initial outline time quote and then follow up with an incredible level of detail. You get dates for exactly when each stage of the build will start, from carving to electronics, the lacquer application etc. The new Standard instruments often come in ahead of schedule, the last one ordered turned up 4 months early! Ritter is a tiny operation with just 2 builders (one of whom is often travelling and promoting the brand). The great thug with them is that Jens Ritter is such a 'driven' guy and his enthusiasm for everything just seems to mean that he somehow gets everything ready more or less when promised. Again he has a really tight control over build schedules and this obviously helps. Carvin are much more in the vein of Sandberg and much of the core operation is handled by CNC. Their turnaround time is quoted as 7 weeks from placement of order to delivery (sometimes there's an extra week to get through UK shipping and customs). They always deliver exactly on deadline and everything turns up in perfect build condition and with an incredibly high attention to detail. I'm afraid there are just as many I've worked with that don't get anywhere close to these standards. Some are very apologetic but others just throw their hands up and say it's all part of the job. I often hear that it's a third party fault (especially in terms of hardware and electronics) but I'm not sure this is really a valid excuse. With many instruments having long build times I'd expect the builder to have pre-ordered all third-party components. Could be cash-flow that's the issue here. Few of these guys will get any form of credit so they have to pay upfront for all hardware etc. I've got a custom build in the works right now so it'll be interesting to see how it goes. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380546806' post='2226808'] That's the point I am trying to make, we [u]will[/u] take our business elsewhere, and that's why we need people telling us about their bad experiences, so we don't make the same mistakes. By saying, "put up and shut up" it seems to imply that we should except it if you get shafted, and then take your business elsewhere, surely it is better to be warned first. [/quote] Missing the point - if you want something that only a certain manufacturer can offer and can't go elsewhere... then you either don't have it, or be subject to their way of work (whether you agree with it or not!). You aren't going to get a Wal from anybody but Wal. You aren't going to get a Kingbass from anybody but Status. If you absolutely must have item "xyz" and manufacturer "abc" is the only person in the world that makes it... your options are limited. (Again, I stress, rightly or wrongly... I still stand by the fact, in that case, as crude as the words are, "put up and shut up".) And lets face it, one person's experience with a company is different to anothers. For example, my experience with a certain luthier bucks the trend of their reputation... and even if I told the story, it is unlikely to put anybody else off. Sad as it may seem, it's a case of doing your own homework and buyer beware. Edited September 30, 2013 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380546143' post='2226790'] Err... I'm not making excuses. I'm actually agreeing with people... just saying, nothing is going to change. It's been it like the 70s... and it's not changing soon. Those that evolve, survive, those that don't, get eaten. Speak with you wallet. Take your business elsewhere. [/quote] Exactly, I think people are not getting what you are saying. They should ask xgsjx what he thinks would happen to his wife's cake making business if she got a reputation for not delivering custom wedding cakes on time. Edited September 30, 2013 by xilddx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380547235' post='2226821'] Missing the point - if you want something that only a certain manufacturer can offer and can't go elsewhere... than you either don't have it, or be subject to their way of work (whether you agree with it or not!). You aren't going to get a Wal from anybody but Wal. You aren't going to get a Kingbass from anybody but Status. If you absolutely must have item "xyz" and manufacturer "abc" is the only person in the world that makes it... your options are limited. (Again, I stress, rightly or wrongly... I still stand by the fact, in that case, as crude as the words are, "put up and shut up".) And lets face it, one person's experience with a company is different to anothers. For example, my experience with a certain luthier bucks the trend of their reputation... and even if I told the story, it is unlikely to put anybody else off. Sad as it may seem, it's a case of doing your own homework and buyer beware. [/quote] I was just looking at your Facebook status dude, made for an interesting read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1380547235' post='2226821'] and even if I told the story, it is unlikely to put anybody else off. [/quote] I'd like to hear your story. It might stop me ordering from whoever it is in the future. There is also a degree of temperance required with posting names etc. I totally agree with shockwaves naming and shaming and I would have done the same in his position. As for my build, well its (at this moment in time) only a few weeks past the proposed completion date. If it's still hanging out months later I will post the names and also any proof of the dates in question. It is however a bit dangerous to start mudslinging without any justification... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='molan' timestamp='1380547229' post='2226820'] I'm afraid there are just as many I've worked with that don't get anywhere close to these standards. Some are very apologetic but others just throw their hands up and say it's all part of the job. I often hear that it's a third party fault (especially in terms of hardware and electronics) but I'm not sure this is really a valid excuse. With many instruments having long build times I'd expect the builder to have pre-ordered all third-party components. Could be cash-flow that's the issue here. Few of these guys will get any form of credit so they have to pay upfront for all hardware etc. [/quote] This is very true - I remember being gazumped a few times with an order of mine, because another customer had put in a very large order. Obviously, money talks (and it shouldn't because after all, fairs fair, I was first in the queue)... but from a business point of few in terms of retaining large spending customers, they are going to take the priority from little old me. It's only when you learn that the other needed to be fulfilled to get the cash to complete my order, then things start making sense! Interesting that you bring up hardware molan - it's true, hardware seems to be the biggy. Importing hardware from the US, China or Japan, (ignoring ABM (who are pretty small anyway) and Schaller in the EU), where the majority of the hardware comes from, is not only expensive in terms of goods themselves, but can be a pricey affair in terms of post and import (and then there's the shipping time). It's much easier to order in bulk, but it's not the average luthier who can afford to stockpile a load of hardware, even though it will get used, because its often the case the money is needed elsewhere. At this point, it's probably worth pointing out there are two reasons behind the problems being talked about here - economics... and people generally just being sh1t. Both are quite difficult to influence. Edited September 30, 2013 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380547473' post='2226832'] I was just looking at your Facebook status dude, made for an interesting read! [/quote] Which status in particular? Edited September 30, 2013 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380547725' post='2226839'] I'd like to hear your story. It might stop me ordering from whoever it is in the future. [/quote] You only have to drop me a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.gif.9ad672bb8b84505709f76b39c8c256ec.gif)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.