misrule Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Hi, folks -- On Saturday, we played a gig for which our singer/guitarist set up and ran the PA system. He's a sound engineer, and very good from what I could see. All our amps were either miked up or DI-ed so he could record the set. My amp, an SVT 3 Pro, has a DI output on the back but he wanted me to use another DI box to give him a clean signal, without my pre-amp in the way. He said he'd get the pure sound of the bass. But I insisted on him using the signal from my pre-amp -- otherwise, why would I bother using it? My questions are: Why does he want a clean signal when I play with a lot of grit? What can he achieve with it? And was I right to stand my ground? Would I have been better off leaving things to him? Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gafbass02 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I get the same thing, or i try to DI from my VXL and they insist i use a house behringer DI!? WTF!! I think its laziness and fear of something different which means they may have to think instead of just doing the same as every other night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Perhaps your grit might sound like a bee in a jar if you use it with a DI....Be best to mic it wouldn't it? Or do both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finbar Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I prefer the sound of mic'd bass anyway. Most (not all) soundguys I've met seem resistant to this. I can see why the pure signal from your bass is easiest to manipulate to get the right sound for the room, but if they ask me to boost or cut a frequency a bit, I'll be more than happy to help if it works for the acoustics of the room. Meh. Most of the time the punters don't notice, and I'm not listening to FoH anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misrule Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Jase' post='215590' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:14 PM']Perhaps your grit might sound like a bee in a jar if you use it with a DI....Be best to mic it wouldn't it? Or do both.[/quote] I don't know -- I've never had to do it before. Does the sound from an amp vary going through its DI channel? Is a mic the best bet? Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misrule Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Finbar' post='215596' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:20 PM']I prefer the sound of mic'd bass anyway. Most (not all) soundguys I've met seem resistant to this. I can see why the pure signal from your bass is easiest to manipulate to get the right sound for the room, but if they ask me to boost or cut a frequency a bit, I'll be more than happy to help if it works for the acoustics of the room. Meh. Most of the time the punters don't notice, and I'm not listening to FoH anyway...[/quote] I suspect it's a guitarists' conspiracy. Our other guitarist has a DI output on [i]each[/i] of his two Marshall heads but his cab was miked up on the night. Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 Or do all 3 if there are enough tracks - then you can pick the best when mixing down and probably use a bit of all 3. Distortion often robs out the low end but you dont notice it onstage in the heat of battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I think it's an easy answer, he wants control of the sound, and if he's good and in front of the P.A there's a pretty good chance he will control your sound better than you can, not always the case of course, which is why when people find engineers they trust they use them again and again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misrule Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='jakesbass' post='215606' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:29 PM']I think it's an easy answer, he wants control of the sound, and if he's good and in front of the P.A there's a pretty good chance he will control your sound better than you can, not always the case of course, which is why when people find engineers they trust they use them again and again.[/quote] So he'd add the grit and manipulate the tone at his end? But presumably I'd get a much cleaner tone FOH than is coming out of my amp. Forgive my naive questions but I've never come across this before. Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerboy Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I've always put this down to lazy soundmen, tbh. I use a heavily effected signal through the amp - quite brutal EQing and clipping (it's a GK and I love that old school 800RB tone). It would be totally inappropriate to take the DI before the pre-amp, because it wouldn't sound at all right for the tunes. Which is why, in the end, I put a preamp in my pedalboard. I can do all the monkeying there, and only offer the soundman the sound I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misrule Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='dangerboy' post='215611' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:36 PM']I've always put this down to lazy soundmen, tbh. I use a heavily effected signal through the amp - quite brutal EQing and clipping (it's a GK and I love that old school 800RB tone). It would be totally inappropriate to take the DI before the pre-amp, because it wouldn't sound at all right for the tunes. Which is why, in the end, I put a preamp in my pedalboard. I can do all the monkeying there, and only offer the soundman the sound I want.[/quote] Thank you -- that's what I thought at the time. Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='dangerboy' post='215611' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:36 PM']I've always put this down to lazy soundmen, tbh.[/quote] plus the one. i'd imagine it's just easier to stick a vanilla di-ed bass sound through a PA than one that's been through a preamp. it annoys me seeings as i like to think that the sound i get out of my amp sounds better than a straight di, but there you go. on a related note - when i've offered the di that i've brought with me (used to be a sansamp, now's a mxr bass di), the soundman's always turned it down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I've had this a lot - he was just trying to get a clean sound, and take an unknown variable out of the equation. It may seem unreasonable from a players' perspective, but does also make sense. Some players use extreme amounts of eq that can be hard to control front of house or for recording. You will often find that amp DI's give you a choice of "line/direct" and this is the same thing - direct being pretty much the same as the signal going into the amp and line allowing the tone shaping of the preamp circuit and effects loop to be included in the DI signal. For me, I don't make any fuss when the music suits a clean sound (jazz, folk, EUB) but for rock/blues I try to use a good passive DI box from an amp output (preamp out, or effects send) that allows the preamp sound to go to the desk. Using a passive box usually avoids any complaints about noise and hum - which is the other reason engineers sometimes don't want to use an amp's DI. I also try not to use eq in any extreme way - keep it clean and gentle! The sansamp is another great option..provided you like its sound. BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misrule Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='BassBod' post='215623' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:54 PM']You will often find that amp DI's give you a choice of "line/direct" . The sansamp is another great option..provided you like its sound.[/quote] Thanks, BB. My amp has a choice of line/direct (I picked line) and a ground lift, which I believe is supposed to cut hum. I also have a Sansamp -- but I didn't suggest it given that he had another DI box and a DI out to choose from. Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiu Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) If it is the sound of your preamp you are after then I'd check whether your DI is pre or post. My Aguilar DB750 DI is before any of the gain stages, however there is a switch to switch it to POST EQ if required. In order to get the 'complete' tone of your amp you need to mic it. However the sound sent to FOH depends very much on where the Mic is placed, the type of Mic and bleed on stage etc. Therefore in my opinion the best results are often a mixture of the two. Given time a Mic can be set up and placed properly, however in most situations I use a DI and Mic. The DI replicates the bass really well and has a nice treble to it. The FOH guy then takes the Mic signal, removes some of the lows and blends it with the DI signal giving the growl. This isn't always an option though. When I don't have this option I usually use a Sansamp, or use the DI on my amp with the eq set to post. Lazy/uninterested soundmen do exist which might explain some cases, just as there are bassists who insist on sending the most unusable sound to the FOH thinking it will sound the same out of the PA as it does through their amp. Ed Edited June 9, 2008 by Kaiu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) [quote name='BassBod' post='215623' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:54 PM']I've had this a lot - he was just trying to get a clean sound, and take an unknown variable out of the equation. It may seem unreasonable from a players' perspective, but does also make sense. Some players use extreme amounts of eq that can be hard to control front of house or for recording.[/quote] More often than not - in my experience - it's down to ego and nothing else. The guy who gets to stand behind the desk assumes he knows what's best for anybody who sets foot inside his venue, and will try to lay down the law from the moment you arrive. Those sorts of people are never going to give you what you want, even if you win the battle over the mix. Some of the more established venues have more amenable staff, but some (especially those sorts of money-pit venues where the management changes twice a year) will invariably hire the type described above. They are either lazy or they don't like you/your band or they just plain don't know what they're doing. Usually a mix of all three. Edited June 9, 2008 by thisnameistaken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 I think we do soundmen a dis-service here sometimes. Often if there are a number of bands on the same bill and the sound man is responsible for the whole lot, then he'll want to minimise the number of unknown variables. If this means using his setup so he can get the best mix (ultimately for you and your band) in the tinyt amount of time that he has available then sometimes we have to bite the bullet. I prefer my head to be DI'd and my cab miked but I know that it's not often i get this luxury so I ensure I can get the sound I want from my pedalboard. Remember it doesn't matter what you think you want to sound like, the sound man has ultimate control and he can make your Ampeg sound awful at the flick of a switch if you piss him off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='215631' date='Jun 9 2008, 07:12 PM']More often than not - in my experience - it's down to ego and nothing else. They are either lazy or they don't like you/your band or they just plain don't know what they're doing. Usually a mix of all three.[/quote] Wow, I've been gigging for 20 years and have rarely come across a soundman like that. Guess I'm lucky! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 (edited) As with many things in life. with a sound man you get what you pay for, many venues just wont pay. it is not in the interest of a sound man to upset people for no reson, but if the venue pays is wages the venue calls the shots. if you are unhappy with the venues sound man bring your own. Inexperienced musicians tend to concentrate on there own sound not the bands. Keep in mind you can not accurately judge the true sound of a amp in a band context 3 feet in front of the speaker, also with distortion some times less is more. Edited June 9, 2008 by ironside1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='misrule' post='215610' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:36 PM']So he'd add the grit and manipulate the tone at his end? But presumably I'd get a much cleaner tone FOH than is coming out of my amp. Forgive my naive questions but I've never come across this before. Cheers Mark[/quote] Well I think the main concern for good soundmen is to be able to eliminate the problem frequencies that sometimes dog a good mix. If you have control over the cut and boost of various frequencies and you set it so it sounds good where you are that does not necessarily translate into a good room/PA sound. If he has control from the bass he can manipulate the room sound while you get what you want onstage. Saves the pair of you getting into a push/pull battle I am speaking primarily of good soundmen, you can discuss what attributes of your own sound you want FOH and he will (if he's good) get you those in balance with a good overall sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Muppet' post='215641' date='Jun 9 2008, 07:28 PM']the sound man has ultimate control and he can make your Ampeg sound awful at the flick of a switch if you piss him off![/quote] Amen to that. Always worth remembering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 [quote name='Muppet' post='215641' date='Jun 9 2008, 07:28 PM']...the sound man has ultimate control and he can make your Ampeg sound awful at the flick of a switch if you piss him off![/quote] which is why if they say they want to use their own di...i agree !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 The soundman probably uses is own DI 1 He knows it works and its safe. 2 Easier to keep track of is own gear, stops accusations of theft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 When we do the biker rallies, the sound guys are excellent. It's always DI for us (apart from the drums, of course!) I always have my MarkBass rig at gig volume (no running it quietly here!) And I'm told the front of house sound is fantastic. Hats of to them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misrule Posted June 9, 2008 Author Share Posted June 9, 2008 Thanks very much for your replies, folks. This is very informative. Some people might say that, to make an Ampeg sound awful at the flick of a switch, you just turn it on But, as an Ampeg owner, I disagree of course ... The guy doing the sound was our singer/guitarist, so he'd want us to sound good. But I'm not experienced enough to know what he's doing -- and I'm glad to hear what fellow bassists feel about the situation. He used a straight DI on the bass for the band who followed us. The bassist was much better than me, and a nice guy too, but he sounded a bit boomy in the mix to me. And, Kaiu, my DI was set to post EQ. Next time, I'll ask for a mic as well -- that'll p*ss him off Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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