Making a living by playing bass

[Gamble]

This is awesome, cheers for all the advice guys! There's some great stuff in here so hopefully it'll do some others (< no apostrophe, right? ) on here some good too!
I'm thinking that being a hardcore session player isn't really the way for me to go, as being realistic I don't think I'm talented enough. A friend of mine who's getting by playing drums by tutoring workshops, jazz gigs and so on has said that I'm easy to work with and enthusiastic which goes a long way (I played on a couple of his music degree recital pieces), but I don't think it'd go far enough to get me in over a really good player. It takes me a couple of goes to learn something usually, although I guess that might change if I practiced harder!

Basically, my situation is this:

I'm not married, no kids (that I've been told about) and no mortgage. I'm currently working nine/ten hour days to bring home £300ish a week and I'm pretty comfortable on that, apart from being sick of the job, not having much spare time to see my girlfriend (who I live with) or energy to get excited about practicing bass etc. It's a bit of a juggling act, and a hell of a frustrating situation. Oh yeah, and come August they're forcing me to work rotating shifts - 7 til 3 / 3 til 11. Screw that.
I currently play in 2 originals bands which I'm pretty commited to, one a little more than the other, but shhhhh..... don't tell them I said so. That's 2 nights a week out to rehearsals, and obviously keeping the weekends free is a plus for gigs. If I could convince those guys to quit their jobs so we could rehearse during the day I would, but most of them are getting a bit more family inclined than myself and they need the stability. We're going for the "plug away at it, get an indie deal, go from there" route to super-stardom.
What I want is a fairly stable job I enjoy, which involves music, or at least leaves me plenty of time for music. I know I'm asking quite a lot, and that's why music isn't the only thing I'm considering right now, but I really want to explore the possibility of it before dis-counting it. You guys have been great so far, and I really appreciate it!

I'm really interested to hear from anyone who's tutoring and playing pub/club circuits, but not so much of the sessions for their cash too, can it be stable enough to count on? Another very talented guitarist i used to work with got a job at a high school as a tutor as well as teaching privately (and playing in 2 pub bands) but still works a couple of days a week at his old 9-to-5 to make up his paycheck. I could handle working a short week somewhere and suplimenting that with music, as long as the regular job didn't make me want to kill myself!!

Cheers!

Edited May 25, 2008 by Gamble

[Josh]

Well one things for sure, this thread has confirmed my worst fear, and that is Sight Reading is more than essential if I ever want to call myself a Pro. But please say you all struggled like buggery in finally coming to grips with all the Sight Reading and theory lark?

[carlosfandango]

[quote name='Josh' post='205964' date='May 25 2008, 02:02 PM']Well one things for sure, this thread has confirmed my worst fear, and that is Sight Reading is more than essential if I ever want to call myself a Pro. But please say you all struggled like buggery in finally coming to grips with all the Sight Reading and theory lark?[/quote]

LOL...it takes a bit of effort to learn to sight read...AND you need to keep it up once you learnt it to be fluid. I learnt to play the piano before picking up bass so I "only" had to learn bass clef properly.....that said.......I know plenty of really good players who don't read and they have plenty of work. Sight reading doens't really make up for being musical and having a good ear, but it makes things easier when you are looking for paid work, that's all.

[Josh]

[quote name='carlosfandango' post='205976' date='May 25 2008, 02:29 PM']LOL...it takes a bit of effort to learn to sight read...AND you need to keep it up once you learnt it to be fluid. I learnt to play the piano before picking up bass so I "only" had to learn bass clef properly.....that said.......I know plenty of really good players who don't read and they have plenty of work. Sight reading doens't really make up for being musical and having a good ear, but it makes things easier when you are looking for paid work, that's all.[/quote]


I'd love to be able to find plenty of work and not have to worry about sight reading, but I guess luck dictates that, whereas, being competent in reading means you'll be more accessible to more people. I can read, but rather slowly and can't read rhythm for the life of me, and alot of the theory behind it still chokes me up. And at college I was one of the few that always struggled in Theory, always, yet for some reason, the ones who could read fluently had a tough time in composing and performing, in which I got the highest marks for. I Guess I see it as a form of Math, and unfortunatley for me, I'm no Mathematician either, I just hope that eventually it'll click and all fall into place.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Josh

[tonybassplayer]

Apologies that this is a bit long winded but bear with it.

A few months ago I attended ( through work ) a strategic management training course. The idea being that we all take a longer term "strategic" vision about the companies we run. After a day and half of surprisingly interesting discussion we had to write our own personal 10 step 10 year plan as to where we see ourselves in ten years ( obviously ) and the journey we had taken. This had to be done in total silence as it was to be your very own personal vision ( albeit with a business influence ) When we had written our plan out we had to physically "walk" using ten pieces of paper though these 10 steps visualising what we want to happen.

We were asked if we wanted to disclose our thoughts and everyone agreed that they would. Without boring you too much most of the other attendees wanted to progress on to bigger and "better" things, perhaps ownership of companies etc and then it came to my turn.

I told them that in ten years time I wanted to play golf during the day and play in a band at night !! As expected this brought some laughter and a bit of light hearted banter but the lady running the course, a very well respected management consultant, came to me at lunch and told me that if that is what I wanted to do then I must "go for it".

That night I told my partner and she agreed. I placed an add to join another band and now play more gigs and practice more than ever ( I was a late starter )

Will I ever make playing music my job ?? Who knows and the answer may be no but I will have a bloody good time striving towards it.

Hope this helps

Tony

[carlosfandango]

[I'm really interested to hear from anyone who's tutoring and playing pub/club circuits, but not so much of the sessions for their cash too, can it be stable enough to count on? Another very talented guitarist i used to work with got a job at a high school as a tutor as well as teaching privately (and playing in 2 pub bands) but still works a couple of days a week at his old 9-to-5 to make up his paycheck. I could handle working a short week somewhere and suplimenting that with music, as long as the regular job didn't make me want to kill myself!!

Cheers!
[/quote]

I do private tuition and I charge £28/hour in my home/studio. Pub gigs tend to be really poorly paid.....£300 for a band/night....sometimes more. Function gigs pay really well and can be really nice gigs too.....£150-300/night and person depending on the band. The "Wedding circuit" is fairly stable with of course a peak in the summer. Pub gigs are good to showcase your band and get some private parties etc....it's also "paid rehearsals".....It's really hard to earn any money playing the rock clubs in London (e.g. Cobden Club) as an originals band as you normally can;t pull that many people night after night to get a decent cut of the entrance fee's. Not sure what tribute bands make...I've heard anyhting from £100 TO £2000/night and person....only ever payed as a dep and have been give my flat fee so I don't knoe how much they make. Maybe some else in the forum can halp validate these figures?

Hope this helps.

[Telebass]

"One thing to consider is your health. There isn't any sickness scheme if you break a finger or come down with some lurggy and can't earn blink. It isn't all doom and gloom but there are plenty of broken dreams along the way."

As someone who's entire income is from music, though not what you'd call a professional (Guitar tech by day, gigging at all other times!), this has been brought home to me big time by the shoulder surgery I had recently. We'll make it through, good planning etc, but boy, it's tough.

Lowdown, more great advice! But point's lost for misuse of apostrophe's...

Edited May 25, 2008 by Telebass

[BassBod]

Another comment on the reading. I can read, but not really well or quickly. I was a lot better a few years ago, and its true - if you don't keep doing it you fall back pretty quickly. I do a lot of dep work and hardly ever get dots to read, most of the time its a basic/scruffy chord chart to interpret or complete busking.

I have done a few shows over the years and these are the only situations where I would say real reading skills are needed, and even then you can get the book in advance (if you ask!) and work through it.

I'm surprised I don't have to read more often, but also quite grateful. One day I'll get back to it because it does give you more confidence when you take a call or walk into a new situation.

BB

[lowdown]

[quote name='Telebass' post='206000' date='May 25 2008, 03:47 PM']Lowdown, more great advice! But point's lost for misuse of apostrophe's...
[/quote]

I am really sorry about the shoulder , and hope its on the mend.
But points lost for networking skills.



Garry

[Sean]

[quote name='lowdown' post='205631' date='May 24 2008, 05:45 PM'][Some Function Bands Even have Pad's][/quote]

Garry, what's a "pad" in this context? Do you mean like a place where they all live?


Cheers,

Sean

[Telebass]

Garry - touche, my bad!

[Gamble]

I used to play in a pub covers band and we'd make £200 between 4 of us for a night in a pub, although by the hour it's not much of a paycheck it's a decent night out most of the time, and as said above it's a payed rehearsal at worst. I was quite lucky that our guit*rist owned a PA and the singer owned some lights so we had everything we needed to fill an empty room, then the singer went mental and decided he hated me but never actually said so, and I'm still not sure why! Interesting one, that. Anyways, we would then get parties and wedding receptions from that which would be anything from £300 to £800 for the night depending on what we though we could squeeze out of them! It's not a great leap to get more regular gigs with a commited band, so that's more the kind of direction I was thinking provided it didn't clash with the originals bands too much. If I wanted to go on tour for a couple of weeks at a time it'd be letting the covers band down, but I guess if they knew that was a possibilty from the start.....
Depping has been mentioned to me by a couple of people now, but I think not being able to read music at all would be a major obstacle. Like I said before, I'm willing to train/learn/practice if that's the way I decide to go but there's just not enough hours in the day for me at the moment unless I jack my job in. I think I might get back onto Royal Mail for a job as a postie, I'd be up early but done by lunch time leaving me the afternoon to practice my *rse off!

Keep it coming guys, this is great reading!!

Cheers!

[BassBod]

Worth mentioning that the "highest profile" job I've auditioned for didn't involved any reading - not even chord charts. You just get a phone call, a time and place, and a CD posted to you by the management. Then you don't so much get judged on your playing, but everything else (sound, gear, looking for cues, coping with key changes..) as well as looking the part, getting on with people etc.

It seems to me that music is increasingly illiterate. The older jazz guys are the only people I know (other than theatres) who ever use standard notation. Knowing your way on Pro-tools and being comfortable recording to a computer screen is far more important it seems.

Its a dodgy old game...but fun, sometimes.

BB

[carlosfandango]

[quote name='BassBod' post='206208' date='May 25 2008, 09:39 PM']Worth mentioning that the "highest profile" job I've auditioned for didn't involved any reading - not even chord charts. You just get a phone call, a time and place, and a CD posted to you by the management. Then you don't so much get judged on your playing, but everything else (sound, gear, looking for cues, coping with key changes..) as well as looking the part, getting on with people etc.

It seems to me that music is increasingly illiterate. The older jazz guys are the only people I know (other than theatres) who ever use standard notation. Knowing your way on Pro-tools and being comfortable recording to a computer screen is far more important it seems.

Its a dodgy old game...but fun, sometimes.

BB[/quote]

+1

[jakenewmanbass]

The hardest reading gig I ever did was in Belgium with the BRT (Belgian Radio and Television Orchestra) doing a premier of original contemporary classical music as a tribute to the work of Frank Zappa it was fly sh*t and millions of bars of rest. But with a days rehearsal the gig went very well.
Classical players are the business when it comes to that discipline and being an ear player who came to reading in my 20s I have never been a top flight sight reader, that said what I trade on is my feel, I have just got in from a gig (2nd of the day) in Barnes I was depping (therefore reading) in an old style R&B band doing bluesy rock n roll there was quite an accurate pad, I missed maybe 10% of the figures but all the chord changes and notation (walking bass) I got 100% and I don't consider myself to be a good reader. Every member of the band came up to me afterwards and said "great feel" and more importantly asked for my number.


To respond to a few earlier posts there seems to be an attitude here by a few guys who think that it's really tough to make a living as a player, and their outlook seems limited by their own lack of insight into the game, I don't want to sound rude or harsh about this but it strikes me that those commentators have not encountered the real pro working scene where very professional individuals can make a very decent living, and they formulate their opinions based on examples of people who haven't done very well. I have to say that that is not representative of the pro music scene I know, there are people who struggle in all types of employment music or otherwise and I'm trying to say this without sounding too harsh, just because you haven't seen it work for some doesn't mean it's the same for all. I have a diary full of pro colleagues who have kids mortgages, nice cars, foreign holidays etc etc
And this is the bit that could sound awful If you are good enough you'll do ok.

Edited May 26, 2008 by jakesbass

[lowdown]

[quote name='Telebass' post='206049' date='May 25 2008, 05:18 PM']Garry - touche, my bad![/quote]

Bit of fun dont hurt anyone....
But your point about your shoulder injury is a great one...
If you are going to be a self-employed musician ,
Its worth thinking about sickness and injury insurance schemes ,
And of course a pension scheme [not that they are worth much these days].


Garry

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='206301' date='May 26 2008, 01:16 AM']To respond to a few earlier posts there seems to be an attitude here by a few guys who think that it's really tough to make a living as a player, and their outlook seems limited by their own lack of insight into the game, I don't want to sound rude or harsh about this but it strikes me that those commentators have not encountered the real pro working scene where very professional individuals can make a very decent living, and they formulate their opinions based on examples of people who haven't done very well. I have to say that that is not representative of the pro music scene I know, there are people who struggle in all types of employment music or otherwise and I'm trying to say this without sounding too harsh, just because you haven't seen it work for some doesn't mean it's the same for all. I have a diary full of pro colleagues who have kids mortgages, nice cars, foreign holidays etc etc
And this is the bit that could sound awful [b]If you are good enough you'll do ok[/b].[/quote]

I agree with you almost whole-heartedly. There are people who struggle with employment in all walks of life and I think that the person who succeeds in a music career would have succeeded in selling Ice-Cream, making furniture etc. etc. The musicians who struggle are 'probably' those that would have struggled in any job. I realise that there are plenty of regular earners out there in any form of employment and you hit the nail on the head with your final comment!

I would say however that unless you can follow the excellent guidelines that you and others have suggested that 'some' people planning on a music career might be better off getting a non-music career (notice I didn't say proper job ) and keeping the music as something you can do at weekends and evenings. This way you can do whatever kind of music you like without having to worry about an income (the caveat being that ANY job/work can cease to exist at ANY time).

I reiterate. Lots of great advice given above and don't let a jaded/failed musician like me put you off. To qualify my position and the angle of my advice... I tried to make it in several originals bands getting publishing/record deals doing self financed tours etc (and the corner pub gigs) but wasn't in the right place nor had the right contacts or maybe we just had cr*p songs and no talent (though we all believed we did at the time). I've given up day jobs to commit to gigging/recording schedules (notice I've had day jobs in a factories as I didn't have the breadth of ability to dep with charts or to teach). I've done the pub/club/function circuit but tbh I didn't enjoy it all of the time and 'I suppose' this is what it boils down to; if you are a Pro it's nice when you get enjoyable work but playing music you like isn't always guaranteed, it's work! As it stands I have a day job now that I enjoy and I can pick and choose what music I want to play, with whom and when.

I'm not trying to put people off a Pro career in music as I believe the industry needs good musicians with commitment and drive BUT if your idea of being a Pro musician is a vision of playing gigs and recording albums with your mates, in a rock/jazz/funk/blues etc band for 1000's of adoring fans... that version of a Pro musician [b]is[/b] a tricky and fickle road to go down. Sometimes it just takes some of us longer to realise what we really want in life but you have to go for what you believe in

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='206333' date='May 26 2008, 08:10 AM'](notice I didn't say proper job ) and keeping the music as something you can do at weekends and evenings. This way you can do whatever kind of music you like without having to worry about an income (the caveat being that ANY job/work can cease to exist at ANY time).[/quote]
That is the great thing about music! Available to anyone interested enough.

A very nice elaboration on your earlier points WH (I always have to be careful when considering shortening your login name Not to Wari' if you get my meaning)
It was a fuller perspective like yours that I thought would be useful as a note to the OP and anyone else considering, so I hope you didn't mind the tone of my little cyber poke.
Cheers
Jake

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='206348' date='May 26 2008, 08:57 AM']That is the great thing about music! Available to anyone interested enough.

A very nice elaboration on your earlier points WH (I always have to be careful when considering shortening your login name Not to Wari' if you get my meaning)
It was a fuller perspective like yours that I thought would be useful as a note to the OP and anyone else considering, [b]so I hope you didn't mind the tone of my little cyber poke.[/b]
Cheers
Jake[/quote]

No worries about any digs . The OP and anyone else interested in this thread need as much clarification as possible to inform their decisions.

re. shortening my name - I've been called worse over the years

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='206333' date='May 26 2008, 08:10 AM']...might be better off getting a non-music career (notice I didn't say proper job ) and keeping the music as something you can do at weekends and evenings....[/quote]

It's a good point. If you're dependent on something for a living, you're then driven by financial motives rather than fun.

[Josh]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='206301' date='May 26 2008, 01:16 AM']Classical players are the business when it comes to that discipline and being an ear player who came to reading in my 20s I have never been a top flight sight reader, that said what I trade on is my feel, I have just got in from a gig (2nd of the day) in Barnes I was depping (therefore reading) in an old style R&B band doing bluesy rock n roll there was quite an accurate pad, I missed maybe 10% of the figures but all the chord changes and notation (walking bass) I got 100% and I don't consider myself to be a good reader. Every member of the band came up to me afterwards and said "great feel" and more importantly asked for my number.[/quote]

Would you say that that is where some sight reading players fall short? By that I mean, they are almost too "Robotic", they can play whats in front of them exactly, but lack a great amount of feeling which we all well know is crucial in being an established player and can be the selling point for most music-related employers.

[lowdown]

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='206359' date='May 26 2008, 09:27 AM']It's a good point. If you're dependent on something for a living, you're then driven by financial motives rather than fun.[/quote]

+1

Well there can be two sides to your Musical career... just another twist for this thread.
The 9-5 or day job part or whatever you want to call it [shows /sessions/cruises or whatever you do]
And the fun work..just dep out the 9-5 gig....
Then do the fun / Jazz or small paid gigs.
You may well ask , why do the bread and butter gig if you dont like it , [if it is just driven by finance.]
Simple..
Well paid , and you get to see the world as a bonus.
And you can still do the fun gigs.
And as Jakesbass has said....
Most full time Musicians i know , seem to have a good standard of living.
And not live of cat litter and in a one bedroom pokehole .

Garry

Edited May 26, 2008 by lowdown

[carlosfandango]

[if you are a Pro it's nice when you get enjoyable work but playing music you like isn't always guaranteed, it's work!
[/quote]

hmmmm.......this is interesting. Maybe the most important criteria for making a decision about a career in music is whether you actually love music enough to want to do it 40 hours week....or more!

Also just to comment on the financial side of being a musician - Being a jobbing freelance musician (like me) means that you are self employed and have to sort out a lot that normally is taken care of by an employer (like taxes, healthcare and so on). And being self employed also means that you have to be a bit extra careful and save up for the low months.

A good way to start is to get some advice from an accountant or lawyer - there are firms that deals exclusive with artists and musicians and they can provide you with all sorts of advice and services to get you going. They will also have a good network that you eventually can tap into.
The musicians unions are also very experienced and provides great advice and guidance - free for members!

Edited May 26, 2008 by carlosfandango

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='206359' date='May 26 2008, 09:27 AM']It's a good point. If you're dependent on something for a living, you're then driven by financial motives rather than fun.[/quote]

Quite wrongly IMO, you appear to assume that the two are mutually exclusive. For me they are not. I mean who said making money is not allowed to be fun? Add playing bass into the equation and I think you would struggle not to have fun in your financially motivated quest.

It's all about outlook and I am not surprised when people who don't share mine find it unfathomable, all you need to do is not tell me how good (or not) my life or choices are, because I happen to have my finger closer to my pulse than you do.

I don't think there are any gigs I do that I don't like. I have a deep and unwavering gratitude that people will pay me while I'm doing one of my most favourite things, it's an outlook that lets me enjoy playing what to some might seem like hell. I just don't mind, I can have fun on pretty much any gig, and with the exception of full on sectional orchestral playing, I have done them all.

Edited May 26, 2008 by jakesbass

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='206301' date='May 26 2008, 01:16 AM']To respond to a few earlier posts there seems to be an attitude here by a few guys who think that it's really tough to make a living as a player, and their outlook seems limited by their own lack of insight into the game, I don't want to sound rude or harsh about this but it strikes me that those commentators have not encountered the real pro working scene where very professional individuals can make a very decent living, and they formulate their opinions based on examples of people who haven't done very well.[/quote]

Assuming 'a few guys' includes me - with respect, you couldn't be further from the truth. I know a lot of 'full time' musicians, but there are very few full-time bass players up here. Many of those have to play holiday camps and social clubs. That's fine if they want to do that, but... I'd rather hang my bass up.

Granted, I live in the North East which is a massive disadvantage.

You've clearly done well for yourself, and that's an enviable feat.