Bergantino are back with neo loaded cabs...

[Musicman20]

Ay. Its a tough call between this and the Genz NX2 212T.

[stevie]

Looks like a Deltalight and a cheap bullet in a thinwall cab. I must be missing something here as I don't see anything to get excited about.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1367313151' post='2063936']
Looks like a Deltalight and a cheap bullet in a thinwall cab. I must be missing something here as I don't see anything to get excited about.
[/quote]

You can tell that from the photos?

[JTUK]

[quote name='GUI101' timestamp='1364157318' post='2022707']
Why does this always happen to me.....
Have been trying to decide between barefaced s12t and the hd212, the s12t had it on weight..... And now this!!!

Well that's just great now ain't it!
[/quote]

In a good way, tho

[chris_b]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1367313151' post='2063936']
....Looks like a Deltalight and a cheap bullet in a thinwall cab. I must be missing something here as I don't see anything to get excited about....
[/quote]

Ooops. Were you awake when you typed that?

[stevie]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1367315050' post='2063965']
You can tell that from the photos?
[/quote]
Not from the photos, but it's a fair deduction from the technical specs. I'd be happy to be proved wrong though.

[stevie]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1367318152' post='2064029']
Ooops. Were you awake when you typed that?
[/quote]
Now why would you think that, Chris? I've been up and hard at work for several hours.

[Alec]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1367311074' post='2063906']
Ay. Its a tough call between this and the Genz NX2 212T.
[/quote]

Indeed, though I've already got a NEOX-212T and am not going to change!

A quick spec comparison:
weight h x w x d (cm) sensitivity price (BassDirect)
Genz Benz NX2 212T 23kg 79 x 54 x 42 101dB 1w/m £719
Bergantino CN-212 20kg 79 x 46 x 38 104dB 1w/m £950

So, based on specs alone, the Berg is lighter, narrower, shallower, and more sensitive, but costs about 35% more. Of course, the sound is key. But the reduced weight & dimensions always have appeal, albeit at quite a price premium. If I was buying now, I might have a harder choice. I also like the look of the Berg rather more (have never liked any of the Genz Benz looks).

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Alec' timestamp='1367328373' post='2064233']A quick spec comparison:
weight h x w x d (cm) sensitivity price (BassDirect)
Genz Benz NX2 212T 23kg 79 x 54 x 42 101dB 1w/m £719
Bergantino CN-212 20kg 79 x 46 x 38 104dB 1w/m £950[/quote]

Sensitivity specs are usually at best hopeful (on-axis either at a certain frequency peak or averaged over a certain bandwidth rather than pistonic or with weighting for power demands) and at the worst complete fabrications. I'd say these are the former and are probably done in a similar way (which matches how Eminence spec their drivers). However, what really matters is that the Genz sensitivity is for 1W (2V into a 4 ohm load) whilst the Bergantino is for 2W (2.83V into a 4 ohm). Corrected for equal power both cabs are 101dB @ 1W 1m.

[risingson]

Just got back from NYC having played the CN212. Not too clued up on technical specs and all that, plus I was sat in a shop at the time so you can never get a really clear picture of how an amp sounds. So with that all aside, it sounded unbelievably good at low to mid level.

[Musicman20]

My current thinking is the Genz may not be as stunning to look at, but it looks like it is a little more rugged, and I might be less worried about taking it to rougher gigs. We shall see.

[One Drop]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1367313151' post='2063936']
Looks like a Deltalight and a cheap bullet in a thinwall cab. I must be missing something here as I don't see anything to get excited about.
[/quote]

Speakers are tweaked to his spec, excellent crossover, good tweeter, his ears. I guess the devil is in the details but hs cabs do sound marvelous no matter what they look like on paper.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='One Drop' timestamp='1367965843' post='2071842']
Speakers are tweaked to his spec, excellent crossover, good tweeter, his ears. I guess the devil is in the details but hs cabs do sound marvelous no matter what they look like on paper.
[/quote]

A good crossover is important...but the fundamental limitations of that tweeter and the deltalite chassis are presumably the same as all the other reflex cabs based on that set-up. Not to knock it, I'm sure it's very capable, but unless I'm missing something it's not 'next-generation' stuff, but another flavour variant.

[chris_b]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1368015899' post='2072035']
....but unless I'm missing something....
[/quote]

People do....

I've got no idea what "next generation" means in relation to bass cabs, but I've been using Bergantino cabs for 5 years and they are the best sounding cabs I've heard in that time.

If Jim Bergantino is just using parts that anyone can buy then he's got some other magic up his sleeve, because his cabs consistently sound better than the competition.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1368020002' post='2072108']
People do....

I've got no idea what "next generation" means in relation to bass cabs, but I've been using Bergantino cabs for 5 years and they are the best sounding cabs I've heard in that time.
[/quote]

I mean more potential usable output for footprint/weight, plus to an extent reducing the inherent distortion of the drivers used (eg using demodulation rings etc) which might give pleasing colour to a sound but limits versatility. I've heard so many people get great sounds with such different gear, there's so many ways of getting there - if the cab is a big part of that then that's cool, but even so a lot of that is relatively easily tweakable in the crossover. Size and weight for a given output level/quality are much harder to reduce. Now decent amps of modest size pushing out up to 1000 watts are fairly commonplace, the drivers are again the limiting factor.

[LawrenceH]

I meant also to say, the off-the-shelf deltalite is a very far from 'neutral'-sounding speaker (I should know, I own some! ) which may be why a lot of people don't get on with the various iterations available and presumably why there's mileage in the OEM-tweaked variants such as these.

[machinehead]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1368033231' post='2072340']
I meant also to say, the off-the-shelf deltalite is a very far from 'neutral'-sounding speaker (I should know, I own some! ) which may be why a lot of people don't get on with the various iterations available and presumably why there's mileage in the OEM-tweaked variants such as these.
[/quote]

Just as a matter of interest - what sort of tweaks are possible, practical and cost efficient for a cab manufacturer like Bergantino to have done to a loudspeaker by say, Eminence?

Frank.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1368037744' post='2072426']
Just as a matter of interest - what sort of tweaks are possible, practical and cost efficient for a cab manufacturer like Bergantino to have done to a loudspeaker by say, Eminence?

Frank.
[/quote]

That's an interesting question - someone like BFM or Alex would be able to give a better answer, but from what I understand you could swap out the various components of a driver like the cone, surround, voice coil, spider and dust cap. Developing a custom chassis would be really (prohibitively) expensive because of the tooling involved, and I'd guess changing the magnet options would be pretty limited? Several of the apparent OEM Deltalite-alikes, like the Genz as well as this Bergantino, claim greater power handling with the same magnet weight. Reduced sensitivity compared to the 'stock' speaker suggests they've changed the voicecoil, probably made it a bit longer so I wouldn't be surprised if xmax were a bit bigger on these, though xmech is most likely the same or reduced.

Changing the stiffness of the cone by altering material, suspension and dustcap as well as having a big effect on TS parameters, can change the mid/high frequency output a lot, so you could change the perceived voicing quite radically e.g. to attenuate the massive upper-mid peak on the stock speakers. I'm pretty sure you could say to Eminence that you wanted a speaker that sounded like 'x' and as far as frequency goes, they'd come up with one. But like before, it's all a trade-off.

[machinehead]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1368097377' post='2073076']
That's an interesting question - someone like BFM or Alex would be able to give a better answer, but from what I understand you could swap out the various components of a driver like the cone, surround, voice coil, spider and dust cap. Developing a custom chassis would be really (prohibitively) expensive because of the tooling involved, and I'd guess changing the magnet options would be pretty limited? Several of the apparent OEM Deltalite-alikes, like the Genz as well as this Bergantino, claim greater power handling with the same magnet weight. Reduced sensitivity compared to the 'stock' speaker suggests they've changed the voicecoil, probably made it a bit longer so I wouldn't be surprised if xmax were a bit bigger on these, though xmech is most likely the same or reduced.

Changing the stiffness of the cone by altering material, suspension and dustcap as well as having a big effect on TS parameters, can change the mid/high frequency output a lot, so you could change the perceived voicing quite radically e.g. to attenuate the massive upper-mid peak on the stock speakers. I'm pretty sure you could say to Eminence that you wanted a speaker that sounded like 'x' and as far as frequency goes, they'd come up with one. But like before, it's all a trade-off.
[/quote]

Very interesting. Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

One thing I've noticed on all the Markbass cabs I've owned is that the speakers appear to have massive movement on the x axis, but then again, that might be an illusion caused by the orange colour.

Frank.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1368099541' post='2073127']One thing I've noticed on all the Markbass cabs I've owned is that the speakers appear to have massive movement on the x axis, but then again, that might be an illusion caused by the orange colour.[/quote]

I'm pretty certain that's the visual effect of the orange cone! Also cabs that are tuned too high cause the speakers to move a lot more and that's not always linear movement, so that may or may not be having an effect...

You can do a lot by changing the soft parts (i.e. the bits that move) and do that with relatively small production volumes but you're always going to hit similar limitations to those of the original model (i.e. thermal and mechanical power handling). So tone can be changed a lot, absolute performance not so much. We've been working on custom drivers for over two years now and I think it says a lot about the quality of our current drivers and what we've managed to get from them that we haven't brought anything new to market yet!

[51m0n]

Markbass cones (at least in their big 410s) move a huge amount, they are flapping in the breeze.

My ae410 cones hardly move at all in comparison.

Yes I've watched the two closely one after the other, its not an optical illusion.

No I cant explain it either, but I would bet an sfx thumpinator would sort that out, and have wondered in the past whether there isnt a similar filter built into Jim's crossovers....

Edited May 9, 2013 by 51m0n

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1368113564' post='2073393']
No I cant explain it either, but I would bet an sfx thumpinator would sort that out, and have wondered in the past whether there isnt a similar filter built into Jim's crossovers....
[/quote]

That would require very big, heavy and expensive passive components, I'm certain they don't. Passive speaker-level filtering is just not practical below a certain frequency, especially using higher order filters.
Different speaker voicings and tunings will give quite a wide variation in excursion, but in any case it's hard to see clear oscillations at 40-100 cycles a second with the naked eye! Different loudspeaker surrounds and cone stiffness probably make a big difference in how obvious excursion is too.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1368113564' post='2073393']
Markbass cones (at least in their big 410s) move a huge amount, they are flapping in the breeze.

My ae410 cones hardly move at all in comparison.

Yes I've watched the two closely one after the other, its not an optical illusion.

No I cant explain it either, but I would bet an sfx thumpinator would sort that out, and have wondered in the past whether there isnt a similar filter built into Jim's crossovers....[/quote]

My gut feeling is that it's a combination of tuning frequency and T/S specs but mostly the former. If cones are moving a lot more (like when you play a Big Twin next to a Super Twelve) then you should expect a whole load more deep bottom end and if you're not getting that then that cone movement has to be happening below the tuning frequency and being cancelled by the out of phase port output.

You can't practically do passive highpass filtering at frequencies that low - the components would be ridiculously huge, heavy and expensive and the impedance curve of a woofer in a port cab is all over the place that low down so the filter wouldn't work without adding impedance correction components, which themselves would be ridiculously huge, heavy and expensive. Just to do a second order highpass at 40Hz assuming the impedance was flat (and not varying between about 6 ohms and 60 ohms across less than half an octave) you'd need a 50mH inductor weighing about 12lbs plus a 300uF capacitor.

(Beaten to it!)

Edited May 9, 2013 by alexclaber

[alexclaber]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1368115315' post='2073416']...it's hard to see clear oscillations at 40-100 cycles a second with the naked eye![/quote]

That's absolutely true. I've noticed huge cone movement when using a passive bass with a DC coupled preamp (Avalon U5) into a QSC PLX with all the filtering turned off (there's still a 5Hz filter) and that all very low frequency movement. Switch the 30Hz filter on and the movement drops drastically with no change in tone at lower SPL. Switch the 50Hz filter on and the movement drops further but the tone also changes somewhat.

[poptart]

Simon

Hi - Jim Bergantino designs his own drivers - these are not "off the shelf" jobs. They have a very high damping factor which makes them very efficient and they don not bounce around - this is generally associated with lesser quality, inefficient drivers. Check out a high end PA rig and you will notice the same lack of flapping :-)

Edited May 9, 2013 by poptart