Take a look at this on JOIN MY BAND!!!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1359032940' post='1948698']
as my band is new, i dnt expect to get paid gigs straight away! so im willing to not get paid to get a gig at a good venue! we recently played at a 400 capacity place to hopefully get our foot in the door and it worked got booked to support a couple of bigger bands.
[/quote]

I think we're all happy to do this, or have done, there's no problem in this at all and, as in your case, it can work.

I can understand the venue's stance, they are investing real money in this, the bands aren't (apart from petrol etc). If bands want to play live they need to play stuff that's going to bring in the punters. For the venue this is definitely what its about. Its naive to think the venue is interested in how good the music is, they just need to make money on the night. The venue is a profession, the bands are often hobbies. If you want to play what you want, you'll need some others who want to hear that before anyone will allow you play live on their account.

How often would you be able to lose money on a band that's tight and spot on artistically but brings a girlfriend or two when you could make a profit on a band that speeds up while playing Sex on Fire but has a beer drinking following of 50? Playing original music AND have a following of 50 is quite an achievement.

Credit to the venues for wanting the hassle of live music, with the high licence fees, investment in equipment and isolation from all those customers who don't want live music. But things work both ways. They can't afford to promote bands, just their venue, and so can't take a loss on live music. But the aloofness and grabbing bands by the short and curlies by some doesn't work either.

[Mark_Bass]

The Problem is, and lets be honest you can probably get 20 "fans" or friends to come along to a gig every so often but i at least find it hard to get many to each and every gig. If i get 5 im happy and as im getting older fewer folk are free and willing to come out and pay to see me play.
I can understand that the promoter & venue has over heads to cover but then their job is to promote the night, big-up the bands and draw people to the venue.
If you dont promote, if your venue is in the arse end of no-where (Bridge House 2 for example), difficult to get to via public transport then it doesn't matter if you do manage to bring 20 fans the chances of the other bands doing so is fairly slim. Then, and lets be honest this happens all the f***ing time, they'll probably only stick around to watch thier mates band then bugger off.

Now for unsigned bands when your 16 or 18 its feesible and highly possible that you can fill a coach load every now and again full of young freinds with visions of you actually making it and having a claim to fame of knowing someone famous ina band, but when ya 30 onwards that is a big ask.

Unfortunately in last year or so this kind of request for a minimum number of attendees has spilled over into pub covers gigs as well, and there are several venues in my area that have asked if we can bring a decent number of people to watch.
Now hang on a second isn't that pretty pointless? If i wanted to play to my mates and our wags every week then i'd not bother going out to find gigs anywhere else but my local!

[dlloyd]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1358864762' post='1946220']
Im really not getting this. I cant see why the fuss. If your a gigging band and you can pull people in then you will get paid, if you cant you dont do it. The advert seems pretty much up front to me.
Im not arguing with anyone, i just cant see what the fuss is all about.
[/quote]

The venue's capacity is 120.

There are five slots.

If you managed to fill the entire venue with your "fans", that's a maximum of £600 to divide among your band members. Not bad for an evening's work...

But who the hell is going to manage to convince 120 people to pay £6 each to watch you play for 20 minutes on a Thursday night? If you can do that, put on your own gigs.

The reality is that the venue will be half full at best, with each band having managed to persuade maybe ten people to come. Nobody will get paid apart from the promoter and the bar owner.

Even if you manage to get 30 people in, you're relying on the promoter remembering to ask everyone who comes in who they came to see and on their subsequent honesty.

Edited January 24, 2013 by dlloyd

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Mark_Bass' timestamp='1359042094' post='1948897']
I can understand that the promoter & venue has over heads to cover but then their job is to promote the night, big-up the bands and draw people to the venue.
If you dont promote, if your venue is in the arse end of no-where (Bridge House 2 for example), difficult to get to via public transport then it doesn't matter if you do manage to bring 20 fans the chances of the other bands doing so is fairly slim.
[/quote]

There lies the rub. No natter how loud you shout the name of an unknown band, no matter how good you say they are, no-one will come to see them on spec. Why would they? And then there's the second band to do.

And the third.

Then there's the next night of bands.

etc.

I don't think it an easy thing to do for 7 nights every week.

[karlfer]

Been there, done this sh*t in the 70's.
Every gig I do now, I bring £2500 of gear, 35 years of experience and on average 7 hours of my time. If you aren't paying me you are taking the piss and will get it right back at ya.
These people are not promoters they are lazy twats taking the piss out of the gullible. If you do it, more fool you.
You have more chance getting famous by doing some excellent you tube videos.

Edited January 24, 2013 by karlfer

[brensabre79]

I can't believe this is news to anyone. Its been the same for years! As a Manchester based band we had to do our fair share of sh*tty gigs in London to get in front of 'the industry' it was the same racket back then.

So called (and usually self appointed) Promoters get you in on a ticket deal or something with the promise of major A&R scouts being there on the night. We'd spend 4 hours in a van on a Friday afternoon getting to the "Tight Fisted Violinist" or wherever because some gitbag at S&M Records had heard our demo and asked if we were playing in London.. We'd play for 20 minutes to a nearly empty room of indifference (because they were there for their mates band not yours), no sign of the A&R, then pack up and drive back for 4 hours so we could all go and work our saturday jobs. Next month we'd do it all again. It's been this way since before most of us were born and will continue as long as there are enough bands stupid enough.

In my next band we refused to go to London, we told the gitbag at S&M that if he wanted his new BMW this year he'd better get up to Manchester with his expense card or he'd miss out. Our mates all turned up (it was free) and we played a good set to an appreciative crowd. No promoters involved.
THAT gig got us signed.

[thebrig]

I can't see anywhere in their ad, where they actually say they are going to promote you.

If [b][i]yours[/i][/b], and [b][i]four[/i][/b] other bands turn up, and [b][i]you[/i][/b] and [b][i]them[/i][/b] only play to [i][b]yours[/b][/i], and [b][i]their[/i][/b] mates, what are they actually doing for you, other than get you to play for nothing, for a maximum of 20 minutes?
One thing is certain though, if all five bands get twenty mates to pay £6 to get in, they are £600 richer, and the bar takings will go through the roof.

Mind you, they might put you forward to [b][i]play for nothing[/i][/b] at all their other venues like these!

[b][i][color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Barfly Camden [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Proud Camden [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Underbelly [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Camden Rock [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Enterprise [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Road Trip & The Workshop (Old Street) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Rattlesnake (Angel) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Acklam Village Market [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Surya (Kings Cross) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Heroes (Camden Town) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Luxe (Spitalfields) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Babalou (Brixton) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Nambucca (Holloway) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Horatia (Shoreditch) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Mass Club (Brixton) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Bridge House II [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Hideaway (Archway) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Annies Bar (Kentish Town)[/size][/font][/color][/i][/b]

[Lozz196]

Having been there, and played - not for these guys, we were doing a favour to someone - I wouldn`t want to be in there with another 119 people. I think many communicable diseases would be spread with that many people in such a confined space. I`d put actual capacity at around 50 or 60 max.

The way to get good gigs is to play proper music venues, that have their own crowd. In my punk covers band, The Daves, hardly anyone travels to see us, aside from the regulars at the venues we play, but they are proper music pubs, with good crowds, who spread the word when decent bands are on. These pubs do put originals bands on as well. I go to these pubs a fair bit, and there is always a large crowd, and usually the same faces. Those are the gigs that are worth doing.

That said, if you don`t have to spend any more than the cost of a rehearsal to get there, gigs at the type of venue we`re discussing can be used as a rehearsal, to practice stage-craft, setting up/breaking down, getting used to going through FOH, working with a soundman, and playing under lighting (so getting blinded every now & then) so they aren`t that bad. By the time you get to real venues, you should be ready to do things professionally, and make an impression for the right reasons.

[mushers]

not meaning to revive an old debate, but i would rather play for free than play for free while lining some promoters pockets.

[thebrig]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1359055472' post='1949217']
Having been there, and played - not for these guys, we were doing a favour to someone - I wouldn`t want to be in there with another 119 people. I think many communicable diseases would be spread with that many people in such a confined space. I`d put actual capacity at around 50 or 60 max.

The way to get good gigs is to play proper music venues, that have their own crowd. In my punk covers band, The Daves, hardly anyone travels to see us, aside from the regulars at the venues we play, but they are proper music pubs, with good crowds, who spread the word when decent bands are on. These pubs do put originals bands on as well. I go to these pubs a fair bit, and there is always a large crowd, and usually the same faces. Those are the gigs that are worth doing.

That said, if you don`t have to spend any more than the cost of a rehearsal to get there, gigs at the type of venue we`re discussing can be used as a rehearsal, to practice stage-craft, setting up/breaking down, getting used to going through FOH, working with a soundman, and playing under lighting (so getting blinded every now & then) so they aren`t that bad. By the time you get to real venues, you should be ready to do things professionally, and make an impression for the right reasons.
[/quote]
I wouldn't have a problem with it Lozz, if they weren't charging at the door.
They know full well, that without these bands (usually young), bringing their mates along, hardly anybody would turn up.

Like you, I go to many local pubs and see some excellent bands who are being paid ([i]average £200/300[/i]) per gig, it costs me nothing to get in, my only outlay is for the drinks, and they are normally full of regulars who are there mainly for the bands.
For me, these are real music venues, which are patronised by regular music lovers.

These so-called promoters are just exploiting bands, they don't even mention sending them a demo, or links to the band's music, so the unsuspecting punters who aren't connected with the bands, are paying £6 and taking pot-luck on what sort of standard they will be, whereas, with your usual music pub, you can check almost all the bands out on Lemonrock first, and if you do take a chance on an unknown band, it's not going to cost any more than a pint.

[Jazzneck]

Windsor 1968:
us "Can we have a gig, please?"
promoter "Yeah, support for Chicken Shack next month"
us " Great"
promoter "How much do you want?"
us "£10, please."
promoter "F**k off, I put The Stones on for a fiver at the same venue"
us "You f**k off then"
promoter "OK, 6 quid and a few beers each then?"
us "OK,see you next month"

We got £10 plus about 5 beers each and three more gigs from him before he went bust - Great Gig.

[Lozz196]

Have to agree there, in The Daves we won`t play anywhere that charges people to get in, and we earn £200/£300 a gig, as the increase in bar takings more than covers that.

On this subject, a mate of mines band played Leisureworld in Hemel last year. The "promoter" didn`t do any advertising, not even a poster in the venue - which didn`t usually put bands on btw - and was overheard, by me, saying "I thought these guys brought a crowd". So they were charging a fiver on the door, not paying the band, and expecting to cream the rewards. So I know exactly where you`re coming from.

This is the same reason I won`t play The Horn is St Albans. My old band played there one night supporting Guns 2 Roses. We took 40 people with us, £8 on the door, and each of those 40 would make Oliver Reed & George Best look like amateurs. We must have generated nearly £1500 that night, and got paid £50. Each of the bar-staff were probably paid that.

[thebrig]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1359057920' post='1949288']
Have to agree there, in The Daves we won`t play anywhere that charges people to get in, and we earn £200/£300 a gig, as the increase in bar takings more than covers that.

On this subject, a mate of mines band played Leisureworld in Hemel last year. The "promoter" didn`t do any advertising, not even a poster in the venue - which didn`t usually put bands on btw - and was overheard, by me, saying "I thought these guys brought a crowd". So they were charging a fiver on the door, not paying the band, and expecting to cream the rewards. So I know exactly where you`re coming from.

This is the same reason I won`t play The Horn is St Albans. My old band played there one night supporting Guns 2 Roses. We took 40 people with us, £8 on the door, and each of those 40 would make Oliver Reed & George Best look like amateurs. We must have generated nearly £1500 that night, and got paid £50. Each of the bar-staff were probably paid that.
[/quote]
The thing is, my band is a "new" band, we've only been together about five weeks, and we are looking to get out there around April time, so you could say that we might be desperate to try anything, and to be honest, we are more than happy to do any charity gigs, or jam nights for nothing, to get a bit of exposure, and some 'live' practise time into the bargain, but once a venue starts charging at the door, and it's not a charity, then that's a different matter, if we are the entertainment, then we should get a cut of the takings, without having to bring 20 people along.
Mind you, most of the gigs I've done in the past with other bands, we've usually had the wags plus a some friends with us, so in total (including the band), there could be between 15 and 20 people anyway, all spending money over the bar.

[TorturedSaints]

Obviously a common problem!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfuSRsAgJI

[Mark_Bass]

Spot on!

[4 Strings]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1359055293' post='1949212']
I can't see anywhere in their ad, where they actually say they are going to promote you.

If [b][i]yours[/i][/b], and [b][i]four[/i][/b] other bands turn up, and [b][i]you[/i][/b] and [b][i]them[/i][/b] only play to [i][b]yours[/b][/i], and [b][i]their[/i][/b] mates, what are they actually doing for you, other than get you to play for nothing, for a maximum of 20 minutes?
One thing is certain though, if all five bands get twenty mates to pay £6 to get in, they are £600 richer, and the bar takings will go through the roof.

Mind you, they might put you forward to [b][i]play for nothing[/i][/b] at all their other venues like these!

[b][i][color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Barfly Camden [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Proud Camden [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Underbelly [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Camden Rock [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Enterprise [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Road Trip & The Workshop (Old Street) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Rattlesnake (Angel) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Acklam Village Market [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Surya (Kings Cross) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Heroes (Camden Town) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Luxe (Spitalfields) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Babalou (Brixton) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Nambucca (Holloway) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Horatia (Shoreditch) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Mass Club (Brixton) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Bridge House II [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]The Hideaway (Archway) [/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=arial][size=3]Annies Bar (Kentish Town)[/size][/font][/color][/i][/b]
[/quote]

Why would they do that?

[thunderider]

like many have said,this really pisses me off,birmingham is awash with "promotors" who seem to have a handshake on certain venues in brum.if i was gonna bring 20+ people to a venue id put my own gigs for my band on,most do little or no promoting we promote there gigs,or they wont put u on how the hell are u sposed to get ur music out there if ur new or like us niche,the support is just that...if they got a "big" local band that should pull punters not the other four supporting them,ok they pull there own people,like my band we should be put on say second thro merit of of our music not how many people,i did a midweek for a "promoter",he never put it in any press,put a couple of posters up in the venue he never even spoke to any of the bands just got a pint then sat in the corner the bands ended up sorting the running order ect out,we ended up as main act..playing to the band before us and the bar staff....then i approached him for some support slots as hes in at the 02 birmingham,his answer was yes but u need to sell 15-20 tickets....my veiw....PROMOTERS PROMOTE.....BANDS TURN UP TO PLAY THEIR MUSIC TO GET IT OUT THERE TO NEW POTENTIAL FANS!! if i wanted to promote other peoples gigs ID BE THE PROMOTOR.....also they seem to dissapear just before the end of the gig with the cash box!!

Edited January 27, 2013 by thunderider

[4 Strings]

[quote name='thunderider' timestamp='1359297589' post='1952621'] like many have said,this really pisses me off,birmingham is awash with "promotors" who seem to have a handshake on certain venues in brum.if i was gonna bring 20+ people to a venue id put my own gigs for my band on,most do little or no promoting we promote there gigs,or they wont put u on how the hell are u sposed to get ur music out there if ur new or like us niche,the support is just that...if they got a "big" local band that should pull punters not the other four supporting them,ok they pull there own people,like my band we should be put on say second thro merit of of our music not how many people,i did a midweek for a "promoter",he never put it in any press,put a couple of posters up in the venue he never even spoke to any of the bands just got a pint then sat in the corner the bands ended up sorting the running order ect out,we ended up as main act..playing to the band before us and the bar staff....then i approached him for some support slots as hes in at the 02 birmingham,his answer was yes but u need to sell 15-20 tickets....my veiw....PROMOTERS PROMOTE.....BANDS TURN UP TO PLAY THEIR MUSIC TO GET IT OUT THERE TO NEW POTENTIAL FANS!! if i wanted to promote other peoples gigs ID BE THE PROMOTOR.....also they seem to dissapear just before the end of the gig with the cash box!! [/quote]

How would you promote an unknown band? They know that no-on will come, so if you want to play there you'll need to make it worth his while, unless he has a passing trade because there's unknown band(s) on.

[Prime_BASS]

We are hopefully doing our last sh*t remtard gig with this lazy ass balls 'promoter' who has decided he is too busy to print posters and posted a message to all bands with a statement:

'I haven't posted anywhere or printed any posters for this show, if you want a poster to post somewhere yourself then message me. A poster is £2-£3 each.'

FLOL JOKES, sponging ass.

We got £15 from this guy on one show, cause we brought 40 people, and lets say on average each band brought 10 people. So about 70 came and paid £4 on the door. so that's £280 quid he took in, at least. Not great but the room hire(incuding sound guy) is £70. So £210. Still good for one nights worth of 'work'. Minus the £15 he gave us that's still £195.

I'm lucky to get that in a week from working full time.

[toneknob]

Later that same day, the story continues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9HoBYl6_XQ

[mckendrick]

I got Facebook messages and MySpace messages from these shysters a couple of years ago.... I can't remember what they were calling themselves, then... but it's the same people and the same "deal". They couldn't answer my question when I asked "how much promoting do you actually do?" They seemed to consider monopolising all the venues was "promotion". I went to The Water Rats (Kings Cross, formerly The Pindar Of Wakefield) to face them out over it but they pretended they'd only been hired by the "promoter" to do the door and didn't know much about the business arrangement. I spoke to some of the bands. Nobody made any money that night. All considered that the cost of getting to the gig, time off work, time spent trying to drum up a crowd... was the same as [i]paying to play[/i]. I believe these "promotors" no longer "promote" at The Water Rats. I despise these s*** - c***s with a hatred.

[Musky]

[quote name='mckendrick' timestamp='1359316358' post='1953026']
I got Facebook messages and MySpace messages from these shysters a couple of years ago.... I can't remember what they were calling themselves, then... but it's the same people and the same "deal". They couldn't answer my question when I asked "how much promoting do you actually do?" They seemed to consider monopolising all the venues was "promotion". I went to The Water Rats (Kings Cross, formerly The Pindar Of Wakefield) to face them out over it but they pretended they'd only been hired by the "promoter" to do the door and didn't know much about the business arrangement. I spoke to some of the bands. Nobody made any money that night. All considered that the cost of getting to the gig, time off work, time spent trying to drum up a crowd... was the same as [i]paying to play[/i]. I believe these "promotors" no longer "promote" at The Water Rats. I despise these s*** - c***s with a hatred.
[/quote]
The thing with Water Rats was there were many promoters using the place, so the situation there could have been quite confusing - you might well have been talking to someone who really didn't know what was going on. Having said that the main house promoters were Monto, and they managed to earn themselves quite a reputation doing pay to play (so different to the situation described above). Symptomatic have now taken over the bookings at Water Rats. They're apparently keen on hiring out the venue much more, so there will be an even greater variety of promoters using the place now. No doubt some will be good, some bad.

[the_skezz]

Plenty of kids I know round here who're trying to get into the business of promoting (I say kids, they're all about one or two years younger than me). Every single one of these seems to think that the extent of promoting involves setting up an event on facebook and telling a few of their mates to come along to the gig, which nine times out of ten features the same couple of bands they had playing there the week before. And then taking the majority of the entrance fee. Sod that. If I get a band together again, I'd rather set up my own gigs.

Not much to do with the OP (and yes, it is bloody cheeky of the promoter in question) but while we're all sharing promotre stories

[mckendrick]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1359320576' post='1953111']
The thing with Water Rats was there were many promoters using the place, so the situation there could have been quite confusing - you might well have been talking to someone who really didn't know what was going on.
[/quote]
Musky.... I was talking to the right people. I'm not a child.

[Musky]

[quote name='mckendrick' timestamp='1359336915' post='1953332']
Musky.... I was talking to the right people. I'm not a child.
[/quote]
Sorry, no offense intended.