Enough Power for Outdoor/big gigs?

[neptunehealer]

Ok, some of you may know i am upgrading my cabs as i feel i need more presence etc.

My Markbass head is rated 550w @ 4 ohms and 280w @ 8ohms.

Currently i use a 240 Laney 4x10, so celarly i need an upgrade concering power and tone.

Ok, i am very close to purchasing Genz Benz FCS 410-T and a Genz Benz FCS 115-T.

The GB 410 is 600w @ 8ohms and the GB 115 is 300w @ 8ohms.


As 275w will be going to both speakers i just wanted to ensure the GB115 will be able to handle it, as i am aware 275 going to a 300w speaker is close to the limit and at big gigs is it likely to fart or sound crap?

Will i be better opting for a 400w 115?

I play some outdoor gigs and large venue halls/marquees so i am keen to get a bigger sound - so will the set-up i am opting for be fine giving me lots of needed headroom?

All the best

Ben

[chris_b]

You really, really want this115!!! And I don't think you've had any advice supporting a 115 yet.

If you really want to knock down walls get a second 410 but I'd put a 210 on top of the 410 if I was buying.

You'll easily get as much low end out of an all 10's rig and it will be punchier in the mix and have more definition in the notes.

But anyway, as you're probably not going to have your amp on 11 you shouldn't damage the Genz speakers you're looking at.

Still, I'd get the 410 first and gig that before you decide you need a second cab.

[jackers]

I would second the advice on getting the 410 first. You can then buy a second cab if you need it, but you may well find that you don't.

If you have your heart set on 2 cabs, then I would say look into a 410 and 210, or 2 210s.

[neptunehealer]

Cheers guys, well i must admit i always thought the 115 was needed in a stack for that extra depth. But i do love clarity and want to cut through the mix - so i am defintely open to the 410 and 210 stack. Just presumed the 2x10 wouldn't add any depth, just thought it would enhance the sound of a 4x10 you see.

My main concern is the 300w power of the second cab - whether it will be enough to keep it's sound quality at larger/outdoor gigs - or whether i adjust my search and increase budget and go for a 400w.

The GB range i am looking at does have a 210 in the range at the same price as the 115 - tough decions to make - driving me nuts.

[machinehead]

Honestly, it's not a tough decision at all.

The advice above is good. A 1 x 15" with a 4 x10" is probably not good.

Frank.

[Doddy]

Offering a different train of thought....For big gigs, you don't actually need big gear as chances are you'll have
a lot of PA support.You could easily do them with your head and a small cab like a 2x10 or even a 1x12 (which
is my current favourite).To be honest, I've played large gigs (a few thousand people) with a 100 watt combo.

[neptunehealer]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1358341567' post='1937247']
Offering a different train of thought....For big gigs, you don't actually need big gear as chances are you'll have
a lot of PA support.You could easily do them with your head and a small cab like a 2x10 or even a 1x12 (which
is my current favourite).To be honest, I've played large gigs (a few thousand people) with a 100 watt combo.
[/quote]

I take your point mate. Just it's very rare we get PA support at our gigs. Just want to ensure i have the power to handle those situations.

I think after doing further research i am gonna go down the 4x10 + 2x10 stack - as i have been told they'll pair better.

My only concern is the 2x10 is 300w and my amp will be sending 275w to it - so wouldn't want it to start farting. Also if i ever get a more powerful amp then it doesn't leave me much scope powerwise with the 2x10 - meaning i may in the future have to overhaul everything again.

Basically just want to know the 2x10 will be fine with 275w going to it.

[JTUK]

You only need enough volume for the stage....unless you are only running through a vocal P.A at which point all bets are off and it is a lottery outside, IMO

I have a good idea of what kit to take into what room and what works best.
Of course, most stuff can work in a fashion in quite a variety of rooms/stages but I don't want to be
just getting volume here.

The reason for this flexibilty is dependant on how well you know the stage and P.A spec, ie how good are the monitors and mixes etc

[JTUK]

The last horrible barn (7000 plus people ) we did had a cobbled together P.A run by
someone who did not have a clue so we had to rely on getting our backline outfront, the vox up as loud as poss
and the drums overspilling into the mics.
Now, no one would advise this..and we were seething at the stitch-up/incompetance, tbh, but we managed to do ok DESPITE the handicaps.
We were told it was a memorable gig and the sound was good ( I interpreted that as 'good' enough )
but the good thing was that we didn't have to reach the back of the barn..
which is just as well. All those that wanted to hear got as close to the stage as they could.

I had a hard running 550w that night and I needed a lot of it.. thru 2x210's. The idiot engr did not want the bass thru his bins..
That is as much your problem as anything else so that is why I always take care of me and carry what I THINK we need.
If I can run quieter with less, then BONUS.

But I do know what my gear will put out and in what size area they will work.. I have made a point of it.

[discreet]

I would get a second 410 over a 115 (if little or no PA support). I can confirm that eight 10" drivers, with the right amp, will give you immense full-range tone, and lots of it. [size=4]A 115 does not give you extra 'depth', particularly if it can only handle half the power of your 410. [/size]

Edited January 16, 2013 by discreet

[neptunehealer]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1358345771' post='1937379']
I would get a second 410 over a 115 (if little or no PA support). I can confirm that eight 10" drivers, with the right amp, will give you immense full-range tone, and lots of it. [size=4]A 115 does not give you extra 'depth', particularly if it can only handle half the power of your 410. [/size]
[/quote]

I am deffo going down the 4x10 and 2x10 stack route now.

I often find with my current setup that when i do a bit of slap it doesn't cut through at all. Just everything goes mega thin. Is this down to my 4x10 Laney cab?

[discreet]

[quote name='neptunehealer' timestamp='1358346269' post='1937396']
...when I do a bit of slap it doesn't cut through at all. Just everything goes mega thin. Is this down to my 4x10 Laney cab?[/quote]

Could be, if it has no tweeter or HF horn. Otherwise you could try low VLE and high VPF with EQ flat and see how that goes.

[jackers]

[quote name='neptunehealer' timestamp='1358343749' post='1937305']
I take your point mate. Just it's very rare we get PA support at our gigs. Just want to ensure i have the power to handle those situations.

I think after doing further research i am gonna go down the 4x10 + 2x10 stack - as i have been told they'll pair better.

My only concern is the 2x10 is 300w and my amp will be sending 275w to it - so wouldn't want it to start farting. Also if i ever get a more powerful amp then it doesn't leave me much scope powerwise with the 2x10 - meaning i may in the future have to overhaul everything again.

Basically just want to know the 2x10 will be fine with 275w going to it.
[/quote]

You should also note that you will only be sending 275W to the 210 if you have the master volume at full, which I seriously doubt you ever will. At normal gigging volumes you will most likely be sending 200W absolute maximum.

Edited January 16, 2013 by jackers

[neptunehealer]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1358346946' post='1937413']
Could be, if it has no tweeter or HF horn. Otherwise you could try low VLE and high VPF with EQ flat and see how that goes.
[/quote]

Will do, i have a VLE dial but don't think i've seen the VPF on my model. VLE is a warmer vintage effect ain't it?

The Laney doesn't have a tweeter or horn, it's extremely basic.

So my burning question is will the 300w 2x10 be able to cope and still sound nice with 275w going to it? Or do i need more headroom to be safe?

[discreet]

[quote name='neptunehealer' timestamp='1358347274' post='1937423']
Will do, i have a VLE dial but don't think i've seen the VPF on my model. VLE is a warmer vintage effect ain't it?
[/quote]

Ah... which MB do you have? Yes, VLE progressively rolls off top end for a vintage cab sound, and you need that top for slapping.

[quote name='neptunehealer' timestamp='1358347274' post='1937423']...will the 300w 2x10 be able to cope and still sound nice with 275w going to it? Or do I need more headroom to be safe?[/quote]

You're unlikely to be putting a full 275W through the 2X10, but even so I would strongly advise two matching cabs - if possible.

[chris_b]

[quote name='neptunehealer' timestamp='1358347274' post='1937423']
....So my burning question is will the 300w 2x10 be able to cope and still sound nice with 275w going to it? Or do i need more headroom to be safe?....
[/quote]

The 210 will be as safe as the 115 but punchier, so you could end up using less volume and hearing it all more clearly.

Your amp will be putting 250 ish watts into each cab at full volume. I've never played a 500 watt amp at full volume even for the Led Zep band I used to play with. I doubt you'll be anywhere near full whack.

The 210 is rated just about the same as your Laney. You were probably closer to running out of steam with the Laney than you will be with either cab in this rig.

What is the highest volume you used with the Laney? That same volume through 2 good cabs will sound much better and be much, [i]much [/i]louder.

[neptunehealer]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1358347645' post='1937441']
Ah... which MB do you have? Yes, VLE progressively rolls off top end for a vintage cab sound, and you need that top for slapping.



You're unlikely to be putting a full 275W through the 2X10, but even so I would strongly advise two matching cabs - if possible.
[/quote]

This is the MB i have, which i bought off here a while ago. It says on the front 450w - but on the back it says it's 550w @ 4ohms!

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=DLB&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&biw=1280&bih=707&tbm=isch&tbnid=ui_vxbhGN4DbLM:&imgrefurl=http://basschat.co.uk/topic/196692-cabamp-advice-needed/unread/&docid=he5qulm4yol9ZM&imgurl=http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/thumbs3/markbass-little-mark-f1-limited-edition-315346.jpg&w=700&h=525&ei=IMP2UMfaJbGW0QWfq4GACw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=116&vpy=12&dur=419&hovh=150&hovw=197&tx=110&ty=35&sig=107028311857943950001&page=1&tbnh=149&tbnw=195&start=0&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0,i:104

[neptunehealer]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1358348517' post='1937468']
The 210 will be as safe as the 115 but punchier, so you could end up using less volume and hearing it all more clearly.

Your amp will be putting 250 ish watts into each cab at full volume. I've never played a 500 watt amp at full volume even for the Led Zep band I used to play with. I doubt you'll be anywhere near full whack.

The 210 is rated just about the same as your Laney. You were probably closer to running out of steam with the Laney than you will be with either cab in this rig.

What is the highest volume you used with the Laney? That same volume through 2 good cabs will sound much better and be much, [i]much [/i]louder.
[/quote]

Nice post, you speak sense there.

I used to push my Laney hard - i was sending 280w to it and it can only take 240w, and sometimes the volume knob was past 3/4!!! So i guess i could have risked blowing the speaker at a gig.

I think i should just go ahead with this now, as my sound can only improve both in tone, loudness and clarity - so it's a no brainer. If i find i need more power eventually i can just move things on in here.

So when people say it's better to pair matching speakers together do they mean the number of speakers in each cab or just the speaker size?
For e.g. is matching a 2x10 and a 2x10 better than matching a 4x10 and a 2x10?
Or doesn't that really matter, is the problem more twhen you pair 10's and 15's together?

[jackers]

The main idea is that you match speaker configurations and manufacturers if at all possible. I.e. 2 410s or 210s will be made to exactly the same spec and react in the same ways at gigs. As long as the 210 and 410 are from the same range of cabs, then they should react in very similar ways too.

The biggest issue when mixing speaker sizes and/or manufactures is that you introduce some uncertainty as to how they will behave when put together in different environments (e.g. boomy halls and things like that)

[neptunehealer]

[quote name='jackers' timestamp='1358349831' post='1937514']
The main idea is that you match speaker configurations and manufacturers if at all possible. I.e. 2 410s or 210s will be made to exactly the same spec and react in the same ways at gigs. As long as the 210 and 410 are from the same range of cabs, then they should react in very similar ways too.

The biggest issue when mixing speaker sizes and/or manufactures is that you introduce some uncertainty as to how they will behave when put together in different environments (e.g. boomy halls and things like that)
[/quote]

Yeah i plan on getting 410 and a 210 from Genz, and they're from the same range.

So even if you purchase a 410 and a 115 from the same range and manufacture there will still be some uncertainty soundwise?

Basically, am i right in thinking same speaker sizes is the safest bet?

[Lozz196]

Having used 410 & 210 together, in my view it is a good pairing. The addition of the 210 brings everything up - as in height - so a lot easier to hear, plus, with the extra amount of air being pushed the depth of the sound is great. And, with this amount of speakers you can actually put a fair bit of bass into them and have a punchy, tight full sound. Would be plenty for an outdoor gig. I used a 412 for one, which pushes roughly the same amount, and without going through the pa it was fine, gig was in a marquee. Reckon those Genz cabs will work well - seen the youtube demos and they sound very good, also sounding far more expensive than they actually are.

[jackers]

I think it is dependent on things like dispersion and other sciencey things that I'm not too good with haha. if you go to the Barefaced Bass website, they have some really useful pages with this sort of information on them.

[neptunehealer]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1358355560' post='1937691']
Having used 410 & 210 together, in my view it is a good pairing. The addition of the 210 brings everything up - as in height - so a lot easier to hear, plus, with the extra amount of air being pushed the depth of the sound is great. And, with this amount of speakers you can actually put a fair bit of bass into them and have a punchy, tight full sound. Would be plenty for an outdoor gig. I used a 412 for one, which pushes roughly the same amount, and without going through the pa it was fine, gig was in a marquee. Reckon those Genz cabs will work well - seen the youtube demos and they sound very good, also sounding far more expensive than they actually are.
[/quote]

With risk of embarrassing myself here, would you recommend stacking this rig with the 2x10 on top of the 4x10 or vice versa?

I was also impressed with the youtube demo, seems a bargain to me.

[lojo]

A lot also depends what the rest of the band going though, if the pa is decent then you don't need anything big as you will be able to go into that and just use a cab as a monitor, if the pa is not man enough, vocals and drums etc will suffer anyway, so a large rig won't automatically equal a good band sound

[Lozz196]

[quote name='neptunehealer' timestamp='1358356187' post='1937713']
With risk of embarrassing myself here, would you recommend stacking this rig with the 2x10 on top of the 4x10 or vice versa?

I was also impressed with the youtube demo, seems a bargain to me.
[/quote]
No worries, 210 on top, for no other reason than it`s going to be lighter than the 410. Will be interested to see what you think of these cabs - a review in order I reckon.