Anyone here do midi bass?

[Angel]

I happen to have a roland GR-20 and also a roland GR-55 sitting around (occasional use with guitar), and I suddenly wondered about hooking the bass up. I was wondering if anyone here uses midi with their bass and what they think of the concept in general.

Also it would be nice to know if the ROLAND GK3B pickup is any good, as that's the route I'd probably take.

[pete.young]

I use a GK3B with V-Bass. GK3B is not midi. It is a set of very small humbuckers (one for each string). It works very well. The downside is that you have to have one fitted to each bass you use, and it uses a 13-pin audio cable which is (a) fragile and ( b ) expensive.

Edited: Curse whoever decided that this editor replaces ( b ) without the spaces with an inane smiley face.

Edited December 30, 2012 by pete.young

[urb]

Nice demo for bass use here from Gary Willis

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHxSDP4EYy0[/media]

Helps if you are Gary Willis too to get the cleanness required to get the best results from this on bass - he's playing fretless too so extra respect there as well...

I use a Sonnus i2M - I have a MIDI pickup built in on my bass but the tracking has never been that great low down - I've found the i2M while not polyphonic actually tracks well to a point and is more than adequate for playing synth bass lines - here's a funny little vid from some dude demoing it

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z81uWIeASZo[/media]

[urb]

and here's me and my setup plus sax player - all synth bass sounds triggered via the i2M live with no overdubbing thingys

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxDb7_KWma0[/media]

The i2M is about £120 I think - pretty cheap compared to the full VB99 GR55 thing and you can use any softsynths you have in your DAW - I run mine through Ableton

[BigRedX]

I've been interested in controlling synths from stringed instruments since the first systems became available in the late 70s. My opinion is that it is a fantastic idea in theory, but in practice it's unfortunately not so simple.

First off straight pitch to MIDI is always going to be a non-starter without extra help. Accurate pitch detection takes a minimum of 1.5 cycles on the best systems (that's not any of the attractively priced ones), or around 35ms for open E on a bass. 35ms is generally thought to be a good setting for slap-back echo, which means that it can be easily heard, and that's before you add on the processing time for the detected pitch to be turned into MIDI data and for your synth module to turn that data back into sound. What is just about acceptable on the guitar becomes an obvious delay on the bass. On top of that you have to be very accurate with both your picking and fretting for the conversion system to understand properly what you are doing Every fluffed note that you can get away with on an ordinary electric bass has the possibility of being turned into something far more obviously wrong in the pitch to MIDI system.

IMO you need fret contact pitch detection to reduce delays to acceptable levels which means in the current market the [url=http://www.industrialradio.com.au/index.php]Industrial Radio Bass[/url]. Using fret sensing for the initial pitch, pitch to MIDI for vibrato and string bends and picking for triggers, this eliminates the main source of latency in the system. The disadvantage of this method is that you have to use the Industrial Radio Bass as you controller which might not suit you as a player.

Then there's various hybrid controllers such as those from [url=http://www.starrlabs.com]Starr Labs[/url], [url=http://www.misadigital.com]Misa Digital[/url] and [url=http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/entertainment/lighted_key_fret_instruments/ez_series/ez-eg/?mode=model]Yamaha[/url] which combine a guitar-like fretting and plucking areas with MIDI-friendly switches. However none of these systems are able to translate the expressiveness of your playing in the same way as you can on a normal guitar or bass. Ultimately they may offer more control over the sounds but not in the way that you are currently used to.

And here for me is where all these systems fall down. You will have to modify your playing technique to get anything useful out of them, especially if you plan to use them outside of a studio environment. Faced with the same choice back in the 80s (when admittedly the technology was less good) I found it far simpler to learn how to play keyboards, then to relearn my guitar and bass technique.

These days when I see someone with a guitar or bass doing something fancy with synth-like sounds, I'm momentarily impressed. but I know that even with my rudimentary keyboard skills I can achieve much the same thing, quicker, more accurately and with more consistency using a decent keyboard synth.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1356878283' post='1914595']And here for me is where all these systems fall down. You will have to modify your playing technique to get anything useful out of them, especially if you plan to use them outside of a studio environment.[/quote]

You're right, but having done that with analogue pitch-tracking pedals and envelope-following effects for years I've found it isn't enough to put me off.

I had a GK3-B pickup fitted to a Jazz earlier this year, it was good fun, and I did use it live once or twice with a GR-30. I found the tracking performance with the GK-3B to be surprisingly good but the GR-30 was a pain to program (I don't like Roland's interfaces) so I sold it. I thought about getting a better synth but in the end it seemed like too much of an expense when I was already getting a lot of the sounds I wanted from my effect pedals.

[bertbass]

I was going to buy one of these, http://www.industrialradio.com.au/, but talked myself out of it but I might talk myself back into it again, you never know.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1356959784' post='1915585']
I was going to buy one of these, [url="http://www.industrialradio.com.au/"]http://www.industrialradio.com.au/[/url], but talked myself out of it but I might talk myself back into it again, you never know.
[/quote]

If you ever do, we'll be expecting a full report here. I've played the Peavey MIDIBass which was the fore-runner of the Industrial Radio design and it was the only pitch to MIDI system that gave me anything close to acceptable results when playing.

[Angel]

Thanks for the replies, interesting videos. I definitely feel up for this now. It's just for fun noodling at home, but seeing as I already have most of the expensive kit I figure I might as well go ahead (once I get paid at the end of the month!).

I already play keyboards, but there's just something fun about playing with midi sounds on a stringed instrument.

[Kiwi]

Thanks for the heads up about Industrial Radio BigRed. Nice to see a company retaining faith in Steve Chick's technology. Great also that they've included pitch bending too. If I can ever afford it, I'll be getting one.

[Kiwi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EbTCcig4oo

I'm pretty impressed by this!

I've made arrangements with Industrial Radio to demo a bass if I happen to be in Sydney, on the way to somewhere else.

[xgsjx]

The bassist from Men Imitating Machines uses midi bass. I read Jarman's interview on Shep's blog & he was saying that he likes the ability to assign different sounds to each string.
He's also looking at the IR Basses too. They look very promising.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1358148056' post='1933692']
The bassist from Men Imitating Machines uses midi bass. I read Jarman's interview on Shep's blog & he was saying that he likes the ability to assign different sounds to each string.
He's also looking at the IR Basses too. They look very promising.
[/quote]

Yeah, he was playing an Industrial Radio bass when I saw them recently, it sounded superb. There is one for sale on the BC marketplace at the moment

[Lowender]

Cool stuff. But a bit of the tail wagging the dog. if I want those sounds I'll just play a midi keyboard. I want a bass to be a bass.

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381255508' post='2236582']
Cool stuff. But a bit of the tail wagging the dog. if I want those sounds I'll just play a midi keyboard. I want a bass to be a bass.
[/quote]

Or if you've spent years learning to play the bass and never bothered playing piano/keys in your life...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1381260198' post='2236703']
Or if you've spent years learning to play the bass and never bothered playing piano/keys in your life...
[/quote]

If it was that simple - then there would be loads of guitarists and bassists doing wonderful things with their MIDI-enabled instruments. However for most musicians it involves such a massive change in technique to get anything useful MIDI-wise out of a stringed instrument that you might as well learn how to play keyboards (which is what I did).

Edited October 8, 2013 by BigRedX

[Lowender]

But you don;t need monstrous piano technique -- just a basic knowledge of where the notes are and all musicians should be able to do that. And with quantizing and such it makes up for lack of technique. The thing is, you play different instruments differently. I love that about going to piano or guitar. It may be limited but it forces you to be more creative. I wouldn't want everything to sound like my bass playing. And with devices such as this, I find the effect winds up playing ME. Just my 2 cents.

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1381260417' post='2236707']
If it was that simple - then there would be loads of guitarists and bassists doing wonderful things with their MIDI-enabled instruments. However for most musicians it involves such a massive change in technique to get anything useful MIDI-wise out of a stringed instrument that you might as well learn how to play keyboards (which is what I did).
[/quote]

Right, but that's just with technology where it as at the moment. Things like the Industrial Radio Midi Bass seek to change that, and the technology can only get better. Sooner or later someone will manage to do it in a neat package that most players will feel at home on with little adjustment (and by all accounts the Industrial Radio Midi Bass isn't far off). At the end of the day, MIDI is just a string of numbers generated by a controller, which is conventionally a keyboard purely because tracking the notes being played on a piano is far easier than on most other instruments. The notion that controlling MIDI with a bass guitar is redundant is no more valid than the idea that notion that controlling MIDI with a drum kit is redundant; and if a drummer wanted to control MIDI to play drum samples, I doubt that many people would be recommending a MIDI keyboard over an electronic drum kit.

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381261126' post='2236719']
But you don;t need monstrous piano technique -- just a basic knowledge of where the notes are and all musicians should be able to do that. And with quantizing and such it makes up for lack of technique. The thing is, you play different instruments differently.[/quote]

Surely basic technique is only suitable for playing basic parts? Synthesiser parts need not be simple; and the tendency towards writing them as such is purely because people are often pigeon-holed into playing them on an instrument they're not particularly comfortable with. Quantisation is only really applicable in the studio anyway. For me the real appeal of a practical and playable MIDI system would be the live applications.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1356878283' post='1914595']
First off straight pitch to MIDI is always going to be a non-starter without extra help. Accurate pitch detection takes a minimum of 1.5 cycles on the best systems (that's not any of the attractively priced ones), or around 35ms for open E on a bass.
[/quote]

Another option is the Roland V-Bass [url="http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/241"]http://www.rolandus....cts/details/241[/url]

This has the advantage that it re-synthesises the actual bass sound and so doesnt incure the delay inherent in having to sense the pitch before sounding a note, but of course its more limited sonically that a pure synth.

Edited October 8, 2013 by bassman7755

[Annoying Twit]

MIDI is utterly the wrong technology for bass/guitar/stringed instrument synths. It requires accurate detection of the note right at the beginning. This is easy on a keyboard with micro-switches, but much harder on a stringed instrument. I think the opportunity is there for someone to make a much better bass or guitar synth by avoiding MIDI and therefore the compromises that format places on the communication between the detection and synthesis. OSC is a better technology that could be used.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[Ziphoblat]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1381266481' post='2236820']
MIDI is utterly the wrong technology for bass/guitar/stringed instrument synths. It requires accurate detection of the note right at the beginning. This is easy on a keyboard with micro-switches, but much harder on a stringed instrument. I think the opportunity is there for someone to make a much better bass or guitar synth by avoiding MIDI and therefore the compromises that format places on the communication between the detection and synthesis. OSC is a better technology that could be used.
[/quote]

Look up the approach used by the Industrial Radio Midi Bass.

[EMG456]

I have a Wal 5 string midi bass which I ordered from Pete back in the early 90's.

It uses Steve Chick's fret sensing system but was created before he had put in the string tension sensors to detect string bends and vibrato which were on the Peavey Cyberbass and now on the IR basses.

It was the best system at the time and may well still be but you still have to play very cleanly to avoid embarrassing glitches - Pete would not take my order until I had reported for duty at High Wycombe so he could see whether or not he thought I could handle it - too many complaints from folks who had sky high expectations! Of course I expect it will be much better now - after all 20 years have passed and the speed of processing has increased exponentially since then!

I rarely use the midi on it these days but it's still a nice Wal so my logic back then has held true.

Also, re the comments about just using a keyboard- yes that's valid but I'm much more fluent when improvising on bass than I am on keys. Plus it's just plain good fun playing strings, Fender Rhodes drums or trumpets on your bass!

Cheers

Ed

Edited October 8, 2013 by EMG456

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1381266672' post='2236826']
Look up the approach used by the Industrial Radio Midi Bass.
[/quote]

Fret sensing still has problems, e.g. a note that is bent before it is plucked. The industrial radio bass has string tension sensors which may help here, but we're talking about a controller that costs thousands. If a bass is being played monophonically, then I still believe that it is feasible to have much better bass synth response by ditching the MIDI conversion and integrating the pitch/note detection much more deeply into the actual synth. And it should be possible in a small digital box into which you could plug in any bass, and which would cost £100-200. The downside is that without MIDI, you wouldn't be able to use the bass to control just any synth lying around, it'd just be the synth in the box, or synths with OSC.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381261126' post='2236719']
But you don;t need monstrous piano technique -- just a basic knowledge of where the notes are and all musicians should be able to do that. And with quantizing and such it makes up for lack of technique. The thing is, you play different instruments differently. I love that about going to piano or guitar. It may be limited but it forces you to be more creative. I wouldn't want everything to sound like my bass playing. And with devices such as this, I find the effect winds up playing ME. Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]

If you are going to be using the MIDI bass simply as a device to get a performance into a sequencer or DAW as MIDI data, then whatever controller your are most comfortable with will be more than adequate. You don't need a MIDI bass guitar to do this you just need to think like a bass guitarist while you are playing/programming the part. As you are bass guitarist that should be second nature.

[Annoying Twit]

If it's just a matter of playing unbent notes, then playing a keyboard is an option. But, if it's a matter of bending notes, trills, etc., then learning to use pitch-bend on a keyboard controller is a whole new learning curve in itself.