JTUK Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Personally, I wouldn't consider doing an original gig unpaid..it all comes done to hours worked and it all comes down to how you have sold the gig. Recently had this conversation with a 'manager' who wanted his new artist showcased. I told him to prepare for a bill of £250 for every gig she does, minimum, from the band...excluding other exes like petrol He went with a young band who would do it for nothing. Wasn't fussed..I've done my trawling thru town and it isn't me who is getting signed. I don't think the band he used was good enough...and I don't the artist is signed to this day. monkees/peanuts, get what you pay for/blah blah ... but someone will do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Am I the only one who thinks that the cash in hand pay no tax economy that occurs regularly in live entrainment is doing more harm to the value of musicians, than any band playing for free in the local boozer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) Whether you like it or not, playing at "The Dog & Duck" in front of a handful of people, is the starting/lowest (nothing wrong with that) rung of the ladder, as you work your way up to the larger venues, and then if your really good/lucky, maybe stadiums, for decent sums of money. I don't see that its any different to lets say, footballers playing in the park or lower leagues for nothing, but once they prove themselves, they can then command a fee, at better clubs in better stadiums. I think that most of the people on here, [u]are not[/u] talking about playing the prestigious venues in town for nothing, but the smaller pubs who attract few punters, regardless of whether they have a band on or not. Not all the people who run pubs are clued up on music, and don't have a clue about promotion, facebook, distributing flyers etc. so in some ways, they are giving the [u]new[/u], and maybe [u]less talented[/u] bands a chance to play 'live', even if it is for nothing, we all play at different levels, and we all deserve that chance to see if we can cut it or not. At the end of the day, we are not talking about big money at most venues, £200/250 split between 4/5 people doesn't amount to much, and how many of you 'elite' bands actually pay tax? and if you are in the bracket of having to pay tax, then a bunch of hobby musicians are never going to be a threat to the top bands earning good money at the top venues. Life is too short, so why don't we all just [b]live and let live![/b] I'm now going to change the washer on my leaking tap now, [b]hold on![/b] maybe I should get a plumber in to do it instead, as I might be doing him out earning a bit of cash. Edited October 9, 2012 by thebrig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349783722' post='1830393'] I'm now going to change the washer on my leaking tap now, [b]hold on![/b] maybe I should get a plumber in to do it instead, as I might be doing him out earning a bit of cash. [/quote] Although this is a poorly thought out analogy. A better one would be if there were a few plumbers out there offering to come and do it for free - thereby doing the normal plumbers out of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349786177' post='1830475'] Although this is a poorly thought out analogy. A better one would be if there were a few plumbers out there offering to come and do it for free - thereby doing the normal plumbers out of work. [/quote] Fair enough, but were there no points in my post that you agree with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Is this still going on? Since it is a couple more points.... Firstly every poster needs to say whether they are talking about covers bands or originals bands since they are two entirely different markets with different long and short term aims. Secondly I find the idea that live bands are basically interchangeable completely laughable. Unless you are the most generic of average covers bands you must have something the differentiates you from other bands - songs performance etc. My band plays original music and most of the time we get paid for it. I'm not worried about bands playing for free taking gigs away from us because they are not Dick Venom & The Terrortones and therefore are not a substitute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1349781117' post='1830343'] Am I the only one who thinks that the cash in hand pay no tax economy that occurs regularly in live entrainment is doing more harm to the value of musicians, than any band playing for free in the local boozer. [/quote] Yes , I expect you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Regulating the Music business... ?? ho hum..good luck with that. But sure, I do believe that certains standards should be the adhered to and even if music is hugely subjective and therefore GREY.. it doesn't help if the conditions are so loose people can pretty much do what they want with regard to admin and payment Once again..this is why making licenses easier..read cheaper/free, IMV..is NOT a good thing, IMO. It only encourages the blackness of the economy. As for tax, PLI etc etc... do people not have to sign for the money they get...? If pubs could not dish out £2-300 out of the till...as was the building trade practice of old.. then that would tighten up the money supply and maybe make more bands more legal...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349786413' post='1830481'] Fair enough, but were there no points in my post that you agree with? [/quote] Good point. I do agree that smaller venues can be a good starting point for new bands. However, there is, to me, a problem with this playing for free thing - which is a broader topic than ..... "it's up to them if they want to play for free or not". I play in a three piece covers band doing sort of up-tempo pop/dance stuff ..... generally well-received everywhere we go. Here's the issue. There are three of us. I'm a financially comfortable old git for whom £50 to £100 won't make any difference. Our guitarist, a late thirties software developer, has had to take a pay cut through lack of software work and has to support his wife and three kids. He relies on the £50 to £100 he gets twice or three times a month to make ends meet. He's very talented and a great frontman so is worth that £50 to £100. Our (newly recruited) drummer is a pro musician. By that, I don't mean Phil Collins, I mean a bloke who teaches drumming, plays in sessions for a couple of recording studios, does corporate workshops - does drum tuition at schools. He says with cutbacks all over the place, things are getting tighter. His gig money is an essential part of his earnings. We have definitely noticed that there are less venues putting bands on - as they the pubs can't make ends meet. I understand the landlords' problems - which I guess are mainly economy based. And, a lot of the well-known music venues are cutting their fees as things are tight. So, it is really not helpful when bands tout themselves around for free - just because they have fun playing. This has a few effects: 1. It reduces the number of paid gigs around. 2. It reduces the fee that landlords will pay for pro/semi pro acts, as they "know a few bands who will do it for free" 3. ...... and can reduce the quality of music being played out there .... and lower the reputation of the local music scene in general (which has an additional effect on points 1 & 2). Some of the "I don't care" comments (not yours incidentally), I find disrespectful to fellow musicians. Especially to the musicians who need the money to pay the mortgage. I think we have enough issue to deal with - and don't to have our worth devalued by the actions of other musicians. Edited October 9, 2012 by The Dark Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349786856' post='1830490'] Is this still going on? Since it is a couple more points.... Firstly every poster needs to say whether they are talking about covers bands or originals bands since they are two entirely different markets with different long and short term aims. Secondly I find the idea that live bands are basically interchangeable completely laughable. Unless you are the most generic of average covers bands you must have something the differentiates you from other bands - songs performance etc. My band plays original music and most of the time we get paid for it. I'm not worried about bands playing for free taking gigs away from us because they are not Dick Venom & The Terrortones and therefore are not a substitute. [/quote] That's exactly right, my band playing at the local "spit & sawdust" for nothing, will never be a threat to you lot, you are a great band that deserves a fee. My band is a decent band, but we struggle to break onto the local circuit of 'prestigious' venues, not because they think we are crap, we hand out demo's and cards with our website address, and when you go back the following week to see what they think, they can't even remember what they did with the Cd's etc. that we gave them. So in the end, if you want to play live, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, or put all your gear in the 'for sale' section. I absolutely love playing music, and unlike some, for me, playing for nothing is better than not playing at all. And I say it again, if you are that good, then a few bands who play for the sheer pleasure of it, will be of no threat to you at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349788091' post='1830511'] .......My band is a decent band, but we struggle to break onto the local circuit of 'prestigious' venues ...... [/quote] One thing you might want to try. Have a look at who is playing at the "prestigious" venues and see if you can get a support slot with them. Of course, this is a time when you WILL have to play for free. Offer to play a 30 to 40 minute set before the start of the set. Make sure all of your best stuff is in there - and make sure you put [i]everything[/i] into that performance. You'll find the landlord will be more keen to book you then - as you will have his ear. Lots of bands like to do that (some don't) .... as they get the kudos of playing top of the bill with a support act. The landlord is getting more for his money ...... and you're not doing anyone out of a paid gig. You'll find those a hoot - as there will be a bigger crowd and there is less set up time as you generally won't have to set up the PA and lights etc. Just make sure you don't act like prima donnas (as did one act who supported us until we put them straight) and make sure that you are willing to help with the set up and tear down if asked ..... and make sure you stay to the end and don't get lost after your own performance. Edited October 9, 2012 by The Dark Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349786856' post='1830490'] Is this still going on? Since it is a couple more points.... Firstly every poster needs to say whether they are talking about covers bands or originals bands since they are two entirely different markets with different long and short term aims. Secondly I find the idea that live bands are basically interchangeable completely laughable. Unless you are the most generic of average covers bands you must have something the differentiates you from other bands - songs performance etc. My band plays original music and most of the time we get paid for it. I'm not worried about bands playing for free taking gigs away from us because they are not Dick Venom & The Terrortones and therefore are not a substitute. [/quote] What if it was a tribute band called Rick Renholm & The Telephones? And what if they played for free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349786177' post='1830475'] Although this is a poorly thought out analogy. A better one would be if there were a few plumbers out there offering to come and do it for free - thereby doing the normal plumbers out of work. [/quote] Not quite. That would apply if there were pro bands out there playing for nothing. Then we would have two differing types of "professional" - those who were happy to work for nothing and those who (rightly) demand payment in return for their services. But as we are talking about hobbyists doing pros out of work, your own analogy is flawed. Either that or I haven't understood it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349787800' post='1830507'] Good point. I do agree that smaller venues can be a good starting point for new bands. However, there is, to me, a problem with this playing for free thing - which is a broader topic than ..... "it's up to them if they want to play for free or not". I play in a three piece covers band doing sort of up-tempo pop/dance stuff ..... generally well-received everywhere we go. Here's the issue. There are three of us. I'm a financially comfortable old git for whom £50 to £100 won't make any difference. Our guitarist, a late thirties software developer, has had to take a pay cut through lack of software work and has to support his wife and three kids. He relies on the £50 to £100 he gets twice or three times a month to make ends meet. He's very talented and a great frontman so is worth that £50 to £100. Our (newly recruited) drummer is a pro musician. By that, I don't mean Phil Collins, I mean a bloke who teaches drumming, plays in sessions for a couple of recording studios, does corporate workshops - does drum tuition at schools. He says with cutbacks all over the place, things are getting tighter. His gig money is an essential part of his earnings. We have definitely noticed that there are less venues putting bands on - as they the pubs can't make ends meet. I understand the landlords' problems - which I guess are mainly economy based. And, a lot of the well-known music venues are cutting their fees as things are tight. So, it is really not helpful when bands tout themselves around for free - just because they have fun playing. This has a few effects: 1. It reduces the number of paid gigs around. 2. It reduces the fee that landlords will pay for pro/semi pro acts, as they "know a few bands who will do it for free" 3. ...... and can reduce the quality of music being played out there .... and lower the reputation of the local music scene in general (which has an additional effect on points 1 & 2). Some of the "I don't care" comments (not yours incidentally), I find disrespectful to fellow musicians. Especially to the musicians who need the money to pay the mortgage. I think we have enough issue to deal with - and don't to have our worth devalued by the actions of other musicians. [/quote] Dark Lord, although we have different views on this subject, it's almost contradictory of me to say, that I agree and sympathise with your comments, and thanks for recognising the fact that I am not one of the "I don't give a toss" brigade, because I am looking at the argument from both sides. I sympathise with the guys in your band who are going through hard times, but I can honestly say that on 9th October 2011, due to arthritis, I had an operation on my thumb in which they put in a prosthesis, unfortunately it was not successful and had to have it removed on 16th June 2012. also I have arthritis in other parts of my body, and a total of six prolapsed discs in my back, so today marks exactly [u]one year of being off sick[/u] (that's why I spend so much time on Basschat). Since February, I have been on £68 a week statutory pay, and I still have three years of my mortgage to pay, so I'm not in a position where I want to, or can afford to play for nothing, but for the reasons I stated earlier, we are a decent enough band, but we just don't seem to be able to break onto the local circuit. I can't walk more than 100 yards or so, without having to stop for a rest, and I need a stick a lot of the time now, but please believe me when I say I do not feel sorry for myself, because I spent years, bringing seriously ill patients, some only babies to hospital from all parts of the UK, so I know that I am one of the lucky ones, but apart from my family, playing bass in a band situation is the biggest enjoyment I get, even if when we do gig, it's painful during each set, but the adrenalin carries me through. Edited October 9, 2012 by thebrig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1349789774' post='1830538'] What if it was a tribute band called Rick Renholm & The Telephones? And what if they played for free? [/quote] Who told you about my new band?! We are playing in aid of Help for Heroes this weekend. As we are all nice guys we said we'd do it for nowt... Are we doing something wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349789850' post='1830541'] I can't walk more than 100 yards or so, without having to stop for a rest, and I need a stick a lot of the time now, but please believe when I say I do not feel sorry for myself, because I spent years, bringing seriously ill patients, some only babies to hospital from all parts of the UK, so I know that I am one of the lucky ones, but apart from my family, playing bass in a band situation is the biggest enjoyment a get, even if when we do gig, it's painful during each set, but the adrenalin carries me through. [/quote] sh*t man!!! You are an example to us all! And here we are arguing about whether or not we should get paid!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1349788552' post='1830519'] One thing you might want to try. Have a look at who is playing at the "prestigious" venues and see if you can get a support slot with them. Of course, this is a time when you WILL have to play for free. Offer to play a 30 to 40 minute set before the start of the set. Make sure all of your best stuff is in there - and make sure you put [i]everything[/i] into that performance. You'll find the landlord will be more keen to book you then - as you will have his ear. Lots of bands like to do that (some don't) .... as they get the kudos of playing top of the bill with a support act. The landlord is getting more for his money ...... and you're not doing anyone out of a paid gig. You'll find those a hoot - as there will be a bigger crowd and there is less set up time as you generally won't have to set up the PA and lights etc. Just make sure you don't act like prima donnas (as did one act who supported us until we put them straight) and make sure that you are willing to help with the set up and tear down if asked ..... and make sure you stay to the end and don't get lost after your own performance. [/quote] Great advice and much appreciated. To be quite honest, most of the free gigs that we have done, have really only been 'one set' jobs anyway, and mainly to see if we are up to it, which we now know we are, as we get great receptions from the crowd, but we do know our level, and would never think that we were better than we actually are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1349790115' post='1830546'] sh*t man!!! You are an example to us all! And here we are arguing about whether or not we should get paid!! [/quote] I'm not sure how to take that, sympathy or sarcasm? I'm only kidding, I can laugh at myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1349791007' post='1830568'] I'm not sure how to take that, sympathy or sarcasm? [/quote] Definitely sympathy.... but I can see how it might be interpreted as sarcasm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1349793820' post='1830618'] Definitely sympathy.... but I can see how it might be interpreted as sarcasm! [/quote] Thanks mate, although I'm not after any sympathy, I was just trying emphasise, that my point of view is not based on the fact that I can afford play for free, because I definitely can't. But hey! that's what's so great about this forum, so many different viewpoints, and most of them all valid in some way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I'm gonna stick my oar in here. I'm newish to bass playing and would love to be at the point of being in a band and being able to play to an audience, the covers that many berate would be fab for starters. But how do you do that? How do you get a following if you can't play live? If you've not got a following how'd you get a gig, whether you are 'just another' covers band, probabbly harder as an originals band? All rhetorical questions really, I'm not asking for answers; but I can see why a new outfit would be willing to play for free or very little. Afterall you put the hours in to practice/rehearse but if you have no outlet for it what's the point. I see that as time progresses you would want and will be able to charge and this would increase with popularity. Maybe there are just too many bands at the start of this curve and the atrition rate is pretty bad so there is always a new band to fill the 'freeplay' spot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Steve G' timestamp='1349799541' post='1830709'] I'm gonna stick my oar in here. I'm newish to bass playing and would love to be at the point of being in a band and being able to play to an audience, the covers that many berate would be fab for starters. But how do you do that? How do you get a following if you can't play live? If you've not got a following how'd you get a gig, whether you are 'just another' covers band, probabbly harder as an originals band? All rhetorical questions really, I'm not asking for answers; but I can see why a new outfit would be willing to play for free or very little. Afterall you put the hours in to practice/rehearse but if you have no outlet for it what's the point. I see that as time progresses you would want and will be able to charge and this would increase with popularity. Maybe there are just too many bands at the start of this curve and the atrition rate is pretty bad so there is always a new band to fill the 'freeplay' spot? [/quote] Exactly what I have been trying to say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I don't see the problem with people playing for free as a hobby. The amount of gigs I've been paid a silly amount of money to play last minute because the 'free' band dropped out more than make up for the rare few we've not been booked for because another band offered to do it for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 [quote name='Steve G' timestamp='1349799541' post='1830709'] I'm gonna stick my oar in here. I'm newish to bass playing and would love to be at the point of being in a band and being able to play to an audience, the covers that many berate would be fab for starters. But how do you do that? How do you get a following if you can't play live? If you've not got a following how'd you get a gig, whether you are 'just another' covers band, probabbly harder as an originals band? All rhetorical questions really, I'm not asking for answers; but I can see why a new outfit would be willing to play for free or very little. Afterall you put the hours in to practice/rehearse but if you have no outlet for it what's the point. I see that as time progresses you would want and will be able to charge and this would increase with popularity. Maybe there are just too many bands at the start of this curve and the atrition rate is pretty bad so there is always a new band to fill the 'freeplay' spot? [/quote] My covers band who are really rather average have never had any problem getting gigs. We have a demo (recorded with a previous line up) but AFAIK we've got all our gigs by simply going to pubs with a set list and a price. And that seems to be the way for the all the covers bands I know. So long as you don't cock up your first gig (and lets face it the really hard work of having some decent songs to play has already been done for you) you build up gigs by word of mouth and backing it up when you play. With originals bands you have to take each gig on its individual merits. You probably will have to a few at the beginning for free when you're on first on a 4-5 band line up, but if after 6 months you can't ask for and get at least expenses then IMO you are doing something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Steve G' timestamp='1349799541' post='1830709'] I'm gonna stick my oar in here. I'm newish to bass playing and would love to be at the point of being in a band and being able to play to an audience, the covers that many berate would be fab for starters. But how do you do that? How do you get a following if you can't play live? If you've not got a following how'd you get a gig, whether you are 'just another' covers band, probabbly harder as an originals band? All rhetorical questions really, I'm not asking for answers; but I can see why a new outfit would be willing to play for free or very little. Afterall you put the hours in to practice/rehearse but if you have no outlet for it what's the point. I see that as time progresses you would want and will be able to charge and this would increase with popularity. Maybe there are just too many bands at the start of this curve and the atrition rate is pretty bad so there is always a new band to fill the 'freeplay' spot? [/quote] Do what any other band does. If you think you're good enough, you put on a showcase. Nothing elaborate. You hire a room with a bar, get some lights and a PA. You invite all your mates to come and see you. You charge them - or you don't - to come in. You get action photos taken with the crowd enjoying themselves and you get video done. If people dance and stay and drink beer then you're probably good enough. If they make excuses and leave after the first set you did something wrong. You then listen to people's opinions and make the set even better. Then build a website with your photos and videos and print out cards and hassle pubs for paid gigs. Simple. If you are really good your mates will start asking you to do their birthday parties etc. Edited October 9, 2012 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.