Maple Quality

[4 Strings]

I'm not a wood expert by any chalk. But, maple necks on basses seem to have changed and I wonder if its to do with slipping standards in the quality of wood.

The necks of my old P and on my bitsa are Fenders from the '70s. Very difficult to see any grain in them, seems an almost homogeneous cream. Same for my '79 'Ray.

More recent Fenders, and guitars of other makes, I've had a good go at seem to have much more grain pattern. Perhaps 3 or 4 here.

Is this because its nearer the outside of the trunk? Was this wood not used for necks years ago? Is the more homogeneous wood more dense? More springy?

Or is this all nonsense and to do with my ridiculously small sample?

[Roland Rock]

There are two main ways to cut boards - quarter sawn and tangentally sawn.

-Quarter sawn is generally regarded as a superior quality. If you looked at cross-section of a trunk, the quarter sawn boards are the radial ones (like the hands of a clock) You can only get so many of these from a tree. The grain is very straight/close together (because it goes right over the rings of the tree from inside to outside), and they will tend to be more stable.

-Tangentally cut boards are the ones left over, the ones not radial, but at a tangent (hence the name) to the radius. These have a more open, wavy grain, as there are fewer rings over the length of the board. These are more prone to movement.

In terms of quality for necks, I'd guess that the quarter sawn, being more consistent in structure and less prone to movement would be the superior choice. Make of that what you will - if your observations are correct, it's possible that companies are increasingly using tangentally sawn wood because it's cheaper and more plentiful. Possible, but far from definite, in case any of Fender's lawyers are reading this!

Edited May 18, 2012 by Roland Rock

[chris_b]

In the 50’s and 60's Fender used swamp ash, particularly the wood closest to the water. That was the densest, most resonant and lightest wood. When these supplies started to run out and cost more Fender started using the upper parts of the tree. That changed everything and people complained about the weight and change of tone etc.

By the 70's they were cutting down any trees, usually slower growing so the grain was tighter packed. Now they have to use managed supplies, faster growing trees where the density is more variable, so the timber has changed.

Manufacturers of mass produced instruments will use all the wood in a batch, the good and not so good. Smaller manufacturers will choose the wood more carefully and can probably afford to pay more for each piece.

[Delberthot]

Another thing about a lot of modern maple that I've seen is that unless they use tinted laquer, it looks a lot paler than the older stuff which makes it look cheap.

I'm not just going on old basses that I've seen recently as the laquer will have tinted more over the years but older basses that were new when I had them years ago

[lettsguitars]

Flatsawn maple is fine for guitar necks. Quarter sawn hard rock maple is considered too stiff. The main thing to look out for in a maple neck is mineral streaks. These are the dark brown, well, streaks that make the wood look ugly. Basically, wood that is free from streaks and has a uniform grain pattern which tightens up towards the headstock is what makes a nice looking and stable neck.

[4 Strings]

I'm sure Fender never used quarter sawn maple, they've always been designed for mass production.

Swamp ash etc would have been for the body, and resonance is something to be avoided in electric guitars as it merely saps string vibration reducing sustain.

I found this showing a mineral streak:
[attachment=108231:Mineral Streak.jpg]

This isn't what I've found on necks, more figuring like this:
[attachment=108232:maple-lg.jpg]

[Doctor J]

They use quartersawn on a lot of Charvel necks, not strictly Fender but still FMIC owned

[Roland Rock]

From a previous thread:
[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1336572590' post='1647715']
A single piece of quality well quarter sawn timber is the ideal material for guitar and bass necks
[/quote]



From this thread:
[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337362912' post='1658906']
Flatsawn maple is fine for guitar necks. Quarter sawn hard rock maple is considered too stiff.
[/quote]


Is it just maple which is too stiff when quarter sawn?

[JTUK]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337362912' post='1658906']
Flatsawn maple is fine for guitar necks. Quarter sawn hard rock maple is considered too stiff. The main thing to look out for in a maple neck is mineral streaks. These are the dark brown, well, streaks that make the wood look ugly. Basically, wood that is free from streaks and has a uniform grain pattern which tightens up towards the headstock is what makes a nice looking and stable neck.
[/quote]

What is the thinking on flame or birdseye for the actual neck I understand that bridseye was considered tainted ( diseased ) wood not so long ago..???

I have had both and I had no issues with them as both were great sounding with looong sustain but what that is ultimately down to, I am not so sure..!!!

[chris_b]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1337374447' post='1659136']
....and resonance is something to be avoided in electric guitars....
[/quote]

Strange statement! Do you build basses?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337362912' post='1658906']
Flatsawn maple is fine for guitar necks. Quarter sawn hard rock maple is considered too stiff. The main thing to look out for in a maple neck is mineral streaks. These are the dark brown, well, streaks that make the wood look ugly. Basically, wood that is free from streaks and has a uniform grain pattern which tightens up towards the headstock is what makes a nice looking and stable neck.
[/quote]
Hey, this is quite interesting, can you explain this a bit more?
I was thinking about the difference between flat sawn and quarter sawn wood the other day, a website I was looking at had the option of both- quarter sawn was shown as an 'upgrade' but your vintage fenders/G&L's and copes etc seem to just use flat sawn- and it's rare you see quarter sawn- even when it's a high end bass where it would be affordable.
What effect would quarter sawn have? What would it sound like?

And then I guess, why do some manufactures/builder use a 3 piece maple neck, I had just presumed that that was for stiffness? Or my warwick which has a neck made of 3 pieces of maple with wenge strips too... Again isn't that for stiffness?
Or is it just more what type of sound you want it to make?
interested

[chris_b]

You're right it is interesting, but this seems to be100% subjective.

As I understand it quarter sawn is used for additional stiffness but, but as an example, Roger Sadowsky doesn't think that matters and just uses flat sawn necks. He is also unimpressed by the 35" 5 string bass movement, and only makes 34" 5 string basses.

Some makers use graphite rods, multi layered necks, twin truss rods and none of the above. Some just use stringers for show.

It seems there are many valid ways to get to the same point, which is a great sounding bass.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1337426064' post='1659697']
Strange statement! Do you build basses?
[/quote]

No, but it saps string vibration. Any fender with a 'dead-spot' you can feel the the body resonate against your tummy as the note is quickly killed. Lack of resonation for other notes and they sustain. Its why electric instruments are made rigidly. A loud unplugged sound generally means poor sustain. I know this is opposite to what most people say.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1337426683' post='1659722']
Hey, this is quite interesting, can you explain this a bit more?
I was thinking about the difference between flat sawn and quarter sawn wood the other day, a website I was looking at had the option of both- quarter sawn was shown as an 'upgrade' but your vintage fenders/G&L's and copes etc seem to just use flat sawn- and it's rare you see quarter sawn- even when it's a high end bass where it would be affordable.
What effect would quarter sawn have? What would it sound like?

And then I guess, why do some manufactures/builder use a 3 piece maple neck, I had just presumed that that was for stiffness? Or my warwick which has a neck made of 3 pieces of maple with wenge strips too... Again isn't that for stiffness?
Or is it just more what type of sound you want it to make?
interested
[/quote]

I understand sandwich type construction is to reduce resonance and avoid flat spots.

[chris_b]

I don't build basses either, but some of the people who do (Michael Tobias, Fender Inc) say that an electric bass is foremost still an acoustic instrument. I guess they could be wrong!!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1337432655' post='1659851']
I understand sandwich type construction is to reduce resonance and avoid flat spots.
[/quote] but dones't the resonance get reduced by increasing stiffness?

[4 Strings]

Mine's an electric instrument.

Anyway, this is going off course, I was wondering whether an apparent increase figuring in maple used for necks means it is of less quality.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1337433345' post='1659876'] but dones't the resonance get reduced by increasing stiffness? [/quote]

Not sure whether the sandwich increases stiffness but it breaks a single resonant point due to there being several individual pieces of wood. Not an expert in this, just my understanding.

I have one Fender with the graphite insertion things in the neck. No obvious dead spots, the most ringy Fender neck I've ever owned. Might be be down to the the rods or not, would love to try some others.

[gsgbass]

What ever Maple, and the cut Fender used on my 2012 Am. Std. Jazz, they made a good choice. The sound is great.

[IMG]http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u426/roadrex/9386h.jpg[/IMG]

[4 Strings]

[quote name='gsgbass' timestamp='1337648066' post='1663524']
What ever Maple, and the cut Fender used on my 2012 Am. Std. Jazz, they made a good choice. The sound is great.


[/quote]

Great example, thanks, see all that figuring in the headstock? My 2006 Jazz has that, so does my old Squier. Older Fender necks I have and my (also old!) Stingray neck have little or none of this. I would add that my Jazz has the separate maple finger board and this piece of wood has very little. All could be coincidence, of course, but does a 'better' bit of wood get chosen to work as the fingerboard?

[Roland Rock]

That's typical tangentially sawn maple. The more of a tangent from the radius, the less rings it crosses, hence the rings are less numerous and more wavy.
The straighter and more close together the grain, the closer it is to quarter sawn.

Chris B also made a good point earlier about companies using plantation timbers in recent decades, where the trees grow faster, and therefore the rings will be more spaced out.

[lettsguitars]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1337425295' post='1659678']
What is the thinking on flame or birdseye for the actual neck I understand that bridseye was considered tainted ( diseased ) wood not so long ago..???

I have had both and I had no issues with them as both were great sounding with looong sustain but what that is ultimately down to, I am not so sure..!!!
[/quote] Figured maple tends to be less stable and is as a customer of mine put it 'whippy'.
[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1337426683' post='1659722']
Hey, this is quite interesting, can you explain this a bit more?
I was thinking about the difference between flat sawn and quarter sawn wood the other day, a website I was looking at had the option of both- quarter sawn was shown as an 'upgrade' but your vintage fenders/G&L's and copes etc seem to just use flat sawn- and it's rare you see quarter sawn- even when it's a high end bass where it would be affordable.
What effect would quarter sawn have? What would it sound like?

And then I guess, why do some manufactures/builder use a 3 piece maple neck, I had just presumed that that was for stiffness? Or my warwick which has a neck made of 3 pieces of maple with wenge strips too... Again isn't that for stiffness?
Or is it just more what type of sound you want it to make?
interested
[/quote] Laminated necks are made with opposing grains. When you cut a strip from a piece it tends to move and is impossible to straighten. What you do is flip the opposing pieces over to achieve symmetry in the wood tension if that makes sense, which stops the necks from twisting etc. The idea that you can engineer a certain sound from a natural product (wood) is a contentious issue to say the least. No two pieces of timber are ever exactly the same even when they come from the same board. Laminating stiffens, if you're using flat or rift sawn mahogany for example. and stabilizes wood such as flatsawn maple which has a tendency to move over time. As i said before, the best necks are made from high quality quarter sawn mahogany. When i cut up boards for necks, the quartered stuff gets reserved for special occasions and the rest gets laminated with quartered wenge. I avoid maple as a general rule. I guess quartersawn maple would resonate at higher frequencies but dont ask me to do a blind test because i would fail miserably, as would most, if not all people.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='gsgbass' timestamp='1337648066' post='1663524']
What ever Maple, and the cut Fender used on my 2012 Am. Std. Jazz, they made a good choice. The sound is great.


[/quote]

That grain pattern would have been singled out for criticism if the bass had been reviewed by Stephen Delft in IM in the 70s. You rarely saw anything other than completely straight and close as far a grain patterns go on the neck of any good quality bass made before the late 70s.

[Warwick_Official]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1337426683' post='1659722']
And then I guess, why do some manufactures/builder use a 3 piece maple neck, I had just presumed that that was for stiffness? Or my warwick which has a neck made of 3 pieces of maple with wenge strips too... Again isn't that for stiffness?
Or is it just more what type of sound you want it to make?
interested[/quote]

Warwick necks made in Germany are contructed of multiple laminates, selected by hand, to insure the grain runs like this: \\\|||/// Its done for stability, and as an added bonus looks nice when carved. The Rockbass and Pro Series use a multi-laminate neck made of maple with ekanga veneers...again, for stability and to prevent twisting.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Warwick_Official

[4 Strings]

Like you I would also fail a blind test of that nature and would challenge anyone to consistently pass such a test.

However, you can do a blind test with dead spots. I can offer two basses (both maple necks, made by guess who?) one will give you a shortened sustain on 'C' on the 'G' string while vibrating on your belly (which I would say was fairly typical of this well known maker of maple necks), the other will sustain and vibrate (resonate?) far less noticeably. The second has the graphite rods.

My old Jaydee has a mahogany sandwich neck and has no dead spots. (How could I tell if it is quarter sawn? Can I assume that being a sandwich that it isn't?)

(Just by way of other resonance type experiences I find most basses really go on the 'B' on the bottom 'E' string!)